78 record wear

[dd2u]

Master Kirtley,

It is not so hard to find thorn or fibre needles today, and you can experiment with making your own:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wardworks/ ... index.html

The main problems are that worn records will not play through with them, and that many gramophones and sound boxes are so stiff or poorly adjusted that they will not even play a good record through with a thorn needle. People who have only used thorn needles with such machines believe that thorn needles are hopeless, but with the right machine they will play most good records.

I still play records that I have owned for 30 years, and (with luck) hope to play them for maybe another 30. I regret wearing some of them with steel needles when I first started collecting, especially those which I really like that have proven to be irreplaceable.

[Frankia]

Of any fibre needles that I use or have used, the ones best able to get through any record are the thorns sold by Dave Williams. He sells them in bags of 100 at £20. I know this is an awful lot of money for a young person. Only thing is if you can manage that much, one bag of 100 lasts longer than the equivalent amount of money spent on steel as it is possible to get twenty or more sides out of one thorn. They also bring out a good sound, though for an orchestra, most bamboos have more suitable reproduction than thorns I find. As already mentioned though, bamboos frequently won't last a full side.
I know you already have Dave's contact details as I saw you give them to someone on this forum some time back, so I'll not repeat.

[Orchorsol]

A thorn or fibre needle is likely to generate more heat than a steel one.

Steel is a good conductor of heat. Wood is not.

I have even heard it said that the heat generated by a thorn or fibre needle can damage the groove walls of a record, but I would have thought that damage might only occur if the needle was not hard enough or not sharp enough.

The debate as to which needles are the best is as old as the hobby.

I think the only way a needle could possibly heat the grooves enough to cause damage is if the record is played repeatedly without a break. I've heard some cautions not to repeat the same side immediately. Probably all hogwash.

I really believe this thing about heat, although ultimately it's only conjecture. (I posted about this on the UK forum before I got booted off it for no good reason! - that's probably what Kirtley mentioned earlier in this thread.) I once read a scientifically reasoned account of instantaneous, microscopic point-temperatures at the stylus when playing vinyl and it immediately made sense to me regarding 78s - steel conducting heat away rapidly, thorn/bamboo much less. But the shellac itself will also conduct heat away, somewhere in between those two (nearer to steel than vegetable matter probably) and the high temperature will probably only be there for microseconds so the "wear by momentary spot melting" will be infinitesimal. But cumulative. Yet in most cases negligible.

However, here's the rub... these ideas explained for me a collection of beautiful glossy classical 78s I once bought which had been played very frequently for many years with fibre needles - they'd been fastidiously looked after but the grooves had a weird, distinctly coarsened, rucked-up look to them (visually, slightly towards the appearance of vertical cut records) - and they all sounded terrible.

Since then I've read similar opinions regarding 78s.

[Frankia]

The above post reminds me that I have had an unusual experience with several Victor records. Initially in extremely good, sometimes almost mint condition, they begin to grey after the very first play. After four or five plays, some of them have got to the point where the thorn can barely make it through to the end without needing to be resharpened. The surface noise goes from almost non-existent to quite noticeable and drag on the motor increases. The reproduction tone is sometimes affected as well.
These are not the "see through" red surfaced Victors meant for record players etc., but the slightly older type.
I've mentioned this to several people. One person thought that maybe Victor had introduced some vinyl into its record composite relatively early on. That's the most logical explanation I have heard so far. It only happens some of them - not them all. I now play most Victors with steel.
Just an interesting aside to the general subject, and a possible warning to others!

[Orchorsol]

Thorn/fibre needles definitely DO "burn" plastic materials other than shellac-based compounds...

Over here in the UK the record companies were still using shellac up until around 1957/58, and even up until 78s largely finished in 1960, most were still shellac. We didn't get Vinylite etc over here.

[ImperialGuardsman]

I've not looked much into non-steel needles, but I have wondered what might work. Are there only specific fibre materials that will work? What would hapen if someone took a tooth pick and used it?

I'[m not suggesting it, but I do wonder...

[estott]

I've not looked much into non-steel needles, but I have wondered what might work. Are there only specific fibre materials that will work? What would hapen if someone took a tooth pick and used it?

I'[m not suggesting it, but I do wonder...

Banboo and cactus thorn work well because they conduct the sound well. Not everything will do- I've tried locust thorns- they're wickedly sharp and can be cut to fit the needle chuck but they seem to absorb vibration and have very little volume. I've tried them both fresh and after drying. On the other hand I had good success with prickly pear cactus spines. They are very thin, like a sewing needle, but make excellent soft tone needles.

[epigramophone]

We don't see much cactus in Somerset and I had never thought of toothpicks, but what about cocktail sticks?

Never mind the sound quality, think of all the dry Martinis that you would need to drink.........

[Orchorsol]

Banboo and cactus thorn work well because they conduct the sound well. Not everything will do- I've tried locust thorns- they're wickedly sharp and can be cut to fit the needle chuck but they seem to absorb vibration and have very little volume. I've tried them both fresh and after drying. On the other hand I had good success with prickly pear cactus spines. They are very thin, like a sewing needle, but make excellent soft tone needles.

Interesting, thanks! I'm going to look for a prickly pear plant with plenty of spines and try them. Often I want to listen to my Expert Junior late at night and concerned about my neighbours so the soft tone might be really useful! I wonder whether I'll need to modify the chuck of one of my sharpeners to take such slender needles...

[estott]

Banboo and cactus thorn work well because they conduct the sound well. Not everything will do- I've tried locust thorns- they're wickedly sharp and can be cut to fit the needle chuck but they seem to absorb vibration and have very little volume. I've tried them both fresh and after drying. On the other hand I had good success with prickly pear cactus spines. They are very thin, like a sewing needle, but make excellent soft tone needles.

Interesting, thanks! I'm going to look for a prickly pear plant with plenty of spines and try them. Often I want to listen to my Expert Junior late at night and concerned about my neighbours so the soft tone might be really useful! I wonder whether I'll need to modify the chuck of one of my sharpeners to take such slender needles...

I found that with the chuck of mine fully closed I could just grasp the needles. Don't try playing records with the natural points, they are too thin and flexible. You have to clip the rough base off the spine and the extreme tip section, then sharpen the remaining bit- and this takes a while as it is surprisingly tough. You may want to use a power tool such as a Dremel. I used a Duotone sharpener which is powered by the phonograph turntable, but it still took a minute or two standing there to do each one.