NEWBIES: Never Use Vaseline As A Lubricant

[Jonsheff]

I have rebuilt lots and lots of Victrola motors and almost all of them with original grease were dried up to the point i have to use a metal putty knife to scrape it out of the barrels and off the springs.

When i disassemble motors i put the large parts, chassis, barrels and springs into a home depot 5 gallon bucket with lid, i pour in 2 gallons of home depot (forgot the brand, blue can) paint thinner. Its primary ingrediant is mineral spirits. I tried the low order mineral spirits and it doesnt work as well as regular mineral spirits. I put the top on and soak for a few days. I the remove all the parts and wash with dawn soap. Polish parts with 0000 steel wool and lightly sand blast the chassis.

For the lubrication i use Amsoil polymeric synthetic grease for the springs and mobile 1 synthetic for the gears. Polymer Grease is a multipurpose polymer lubricant that contains rust and oxidation inhibitors. It is highly adhesive, water-resistant, and has excellent stability. I have also used Valvoline synthetic grease from Autozone (black grease) with good results. I also add mobile 1 synthetic motor oil in addition to the grease on the governor and worm gear bearings.

Here is a 2 spring i did last week and a 4 spring that shows the spring grease.

[JeffR1]

How are you applying the grease to the springs, the preferred way around here is to install the spring dry in a dry spring barrel ?
Then pack the centre of the spring solid with grease leaving one coil open with out grease.
It's wound to the top once to disperse the grease.

Packing right full will allow the grease to displace the cover where the excess grease will ooze out, so that's why one would want to leave one coil with out grease.

The grease moves from the centre to the outside continually as it's wound and unwinds.

I used Red Line CV-2 grease as it was handy, but it's a bit thick on it's own, it did not allow the spring to fully wind down, but not by much.

There was another member that thinned it down with their gear oil to the point where it was "pourable" but still quite thick, claiming that it worked very well, and I'm sure it did, but I think eventually it would work it's way out _ I don't know for sure.

Also, what NLGI number are you using, it says just above the Logo, but you have the tube just turned away from the photo ?

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/datab ... /g2762.pdf

EDIT:
I also did a little research on this Amsoil grease, it's not all synthetic, it's basically a Lithium base compound with a synthetic oil.
I think the word "Polymeric" is just a marketing term that doesn't really mean anything.
All these greases are basically the same, some stickier then others, some not so.
Just different bases, but they all do the same thing.

[Wes K]

There's only one word you need to remember when it come to what kind of grease to use- Lubriplate.
30+ years now in my Edison standard, and other machines I have rebuilt and it is still buttery smooth. And all I do is occasionally add a few drops of sae 20 or 30 oil to the grease when doing routine lubrication of the motor.

The best part (to me) is the beige color of the grease will tell you when it's time to rebuild the motor by how much it has discolored from contaminates getting into the grease, even if the motor still runs well.
I use Lubriplate 130-AA for springs and gears, and it is easily mixed with and thinned by oil for parts requiring a lighter grease. It is a calcium-based grease.

[JeffR1]

There's only one word you need to remember when it come to what kind of grease to use- Lubriplate.
30+ years now in my Edison standard, and other machines I have rebuilt and it is still buttery smooth. And all I do is occasionally add a few drops of sae 20 or 30 oil to the grease when doing routine lubrication of the motor.

The best part (to me) is the beige color of the grease will tell you when it's time to rebuild the motor by how much it has discolored from contaminates getting into the grease, even if the motor still runs well.
I use Lubriplate 130-AA for springs and gears, and it is easily mixed with and thinned by oil for parts requiring a lighter grease. It is a calcium-based grease.

Thanks for your input here, what is your procedure in application ?
Do you start with a dry installed spring and pack the centre leaving the last open coil empty ?
I tried packing a Victor right full and the excess grease just squeezed out the cover, but it was quiet.

The grease I used was too thick and didn't wind down all the way where it left a bit of tension still on the turntable shaft.
That was the Red-Line CV-2 grease.

[Wes K]

Thanks for your input here, what is your procedure in application ?
Do you start with a dry installed spring and pack the centre leaving the last open coil empty ?
I tried packing a Victor right full and the excess grease just squeezed out the cover, but it was quiet.

The grease I used was too thick and didn't wind down all the way where it left a bit of tension still on the turntable shaft.
That was the Red-Line CV-2 grease.

I install the spring dry, it's much easier to handle that way, then oil the spring, not too much, just enough to wet the top edges of the coils and let it 'soak' in, then pack the middle of the coils with grease, using a putty knife, pack it like a wheel bearing, leaving the center turn clear. I don't pack it totally full, but I make sure to force the grease down into the coils. After the motor is back together and running, I wind it up and let it run down a half-dozen times or so to distribute the grease. The oil I use is called 'zoom-spout' oil and is SAE-20.

[JeffR1]

Thanks for your input here, what is your procedure in application ?
Do you start with a dry installed spring and pack the centre leaving the last open coil empty ?
I tried packing a Victor right full and the excess grease just squeezed out the cover, but it was quiet.

The grease I used was too thick and didn't wind down all the way where it left a bit of tension still on the turntable shaft.
That was the Red-Line CV-2 grease.

I install the spring dry, it's much easier to handle that way, then oil the spring, not too much, just enough to wet the top edges of the coils and let it 'soak' in, then pack the middle of the coils with grease, using a putty knife, pack it like a wheel bearing, leaving the center turn clear. I don't pack it totally full, but I make sure to force the grease down into the coils. After the motor is back together and running, I wind it up and let it run down a half-dozen times or so to distribute the grease. The oil I use is called 'zoom-spout' oil and is SAE-20.

Thanks Wes, packing the centre and forcing the grease in the rest of the spring is key, this allows the grease to spread evenly and makes for a quiet spring; this is what I have learned for myself.
Applying it by hand as I was doing, does not work, it's nearly impossible to get it spread evenly; and the uneven grease causes the usual thumping and noise when it's being wound.
Others here have been doing it that way for many years and one especially did not appreciate me questioning their methods, but that's their problem.
I like to find out the "how's and the whys" when something works, I also like to see if another method is feasible.
People get themselves in a knot when I question them, that comes from dealing with so called professional people who bugger things up and have no idea what they are doing.
Politicians and mechanics fall into that category, and then contractors, on and on.

And about the grease, almost anything will work, even Vaseline with 50% graphite in it.

Still one problem to solve though, Inigo is still having problems with his spring, thumping and such, I sent him a PM some questions, but he has not answered.

[gunnarthefeisty]

Is there anything I can put into my C19 motor that'll "loosen up" the grease just a bit?

[JeffR1]

Is there anything I can put into my C19 motor that'll "loosen up" the grease just a bit?

Here is what I believe what is wrong with Vaseline and Graphite, and I think this is what Edison has used on the C19 _ the Chippendale model ?

A descent grease contains additives to make the grease into just that, these additives, if they do their job well keep the oil in the grease form separating.
They also should not oxidize when exposed to the atmosphere and stay in a grease state.
Modern grease does a very good job at this.

Vaseline has very poor connective qualities, in other words, the oil separates very easily from the solids, but if one puts enough graphite in it, this helps to keep the whole lot altogether, but it will eventually fail.
It separates into an oil and lumps of hard graphite, the graphite ends up in the cavities in the spring barrel and all that's left to lubricate the spring is just the oil.
Oil itself does not make a good lubricant for a gramophone spring, it unwinds to fast for the oil to do a good job.
It allows the spring to slip and depending on the design of the spring it will stick and suddenly let go, and then it "thumps" and will do it in the same place depending on how much it's wound.
The oil does not have enough viscosity to allow the spring to unwind properly, and with Vaseline, the oil in it is especially not very viscous. (it gets squeezed out very easily)
I believe it's not so much the dried graphite, it's what's left of the Vaseline that causes the thumping, not so much the graphite.

On the C19, I've read that Edison has a plug to add grease on the spring barrel, wind it up fully and add grease, use something with Moly in it, and an NLGI number of 1, a number 2 will be too thick, anything less then 1 will be too thin, and there is a 0 and a 00, I think there is even a 000.

You will have to rig up a grease gun to fit the thread on the barrel, you will need the grease gun to fill the cavity up when the spring is fully wound.
That Amsoil grease that Jonsheff used should work well enough, remember to use an NLGI with a number 1, he never did tell me.
I don't think it has any Moly in it though.
The Red-Line CV-2 grease does, but it's a but thick, you can thin it down a bit, but not like gramophone-georg did, that's here.

viewtopic.php?p=311657#p311657

You may try anything you like in there to dissolve the graphite, but I believe it does not need more oil, or anything that dissolves hardened graphite.
If it does not work, then add grease, and I think that will solve your problem, but you have to fill it right up so it works it's way into the coils.
I would just go with the grease first.

[Jonsheff]

Here is the grease i use for the springs, i think its the best for that application

AMSOIL Synthetic Polymeric Off-Road Grease NLGI #1

AMSOIL Synthetic Polymeric Off-Road Grease combines an over-based calcium-sulfonate complex thickener and proprietary synthetic polymeric technology to provide outstanding performance in heavy duty off-road applications. AMSOIL developed an exclusive synthetic polymeric system custom-built to provide performance benefits specific to off-road equipment. This synthetic technology helps give AMSOIL Off-Road Grease tenacious cling ability and maximum pound-out resistance over extended service intervals, even in wet environments. AMSOIL Synthetic Polymeric Off-Road Grease is heavily fortified with moly for maximum wear protection to meet Caterpillar’s requirement for pin and bushing applications. Its high Timken OK load and excellent four-ball wear and four-ball weld test results are proof of its exceptional load-bearing capacity. Field test results show that AMSOIL Synthetic Polymeric Off-Road Grease reduces grease consumption by up to 50 percent. That allows operators to either maintain their current maintenance schedule and use up to 50 percent less grease per application, or extend the length of time between re-greasings by up to 50 percent. Its superior pound-out resistance combined with extended service intervals and superior protection result in reduced lubricant, labor and equipment-replacement costs.

[gramophoneshane]

*forcing the grease in the rest of the spring is key, this allows the grease to spread evenly and makes for a quiet spring; this is what I have learned for myself.

*Here is what I believe what is wrong with Vaseline and Graphite, and I think this is what Edison has used on the C19 _ the Chippendale model ?


It separates into an oil and lumps of hard graphite, the graphite ends up in the cavities in the spring barrel and all that's left to lubricate the spring is just the oil.

*I'm glad my suggestion to actually pack the barrel with grease, instead of smearing a thin layer of it along the length of the spring, worked.
Bravo.

*Actually, as far as I'm aware, Edison DID NOT use vaseline and graphite mix on springs, but Victor/HMV did, or at least they used some sort of graphite grease, which after 50 yrs tends to harden.

Now whether it was vaseline or not I can't say either way because I'm certainly no lubricant expert, I've never had the original grease scientifically annolised, and I've never seen any original literature that states the grease is vaseline, so I'm probably a little sceptical where vaseline is concerned.
And even if it was, we don't know if in 1915 the vaseline was the same consistently as today.
I'm also sceptical about this 50/50 mix.
I think common sense would tell you that adding equal part of what's basically a powder to vaseline is going to give you some pretty awful thick concoction that won't be happy in a spring barrel.
I'd actually love to know where and when this 50/50 came from.
I'd never heard of it until I got my first computer in about 2002, and I discovered phono forums.
I kind of find it hard to believe Edison or Victor would have been telling people to mix their own 50/50 lube instead of trying to sell their own line of lube, so did it come from a dealership at the time as an alternative to an expensive name brand, or became popular during the depression amount folks too poor to buy electric gramophones or maintenance products for old fashioned machines?
Then again it may have come from early collector groups in the 60s or 70s who decided it's just vaseline and graphite in much the same way as some folks will tell you WD40 is nothing but kerosene in a can, without really knowing what the exact formula is because its used at a higher ration than the other ingredients.
I have absolutely no idea where the Vaso/graphite formula originated, but I would dearly love to see anything anyone has that could help educate us.

I don't know if Edison used a similar grease to Victor on some of their models, but I've never come across it before.
What I have come across is an original tube of Edison grease for Diamond Disc and Amberola machines.
It about a quarter of the size of a regular tube of toothpaste and the grease inside is a dark green colour with a "sparkle" through it, which is obviously graphite.
The tube recommend you add a whole tube to a DD barrel or half tube to an Amberola if spring noise appears.
So this stuff was designed to be added to old existing grease rather than a full spring cleaning and relube.
What ever this grease is, it doesn't solidify in the same way as Victor grease, and in fact it's quite common to find DD machines even today that run perfectly with the original 100 yr old grease in the spring.
I'm guessing the ones that don't may have been exposed to more severe temperature changes, or perhaps were just used far more than the average machine, but I really don't know.
What I do know is it's extremely rare to find an original HMV that doesn't bump but fairly rare to find a DD that does.

*I actually found your statement about hard chunks of graphite in cavities leaving just the oil behind hard to believe and I have to ask, how do you know this?
It's certainly been nothing like what I've experienced over 40 yrs doing dozens of motors, and until two weeks ago you didn't even know you need more than a teaspoon of grease to stop springs bumping.
I mean yes, graphite grease will be in the barrel cavities etc, but no more than any other grease would, except it's dries up, Most of the remaining graphite grease in the barrel will also be hard, particularly where the grease may have been trapped in the same place for perhaps decades without use, while some grease toward the inner coils haven't dries quite as much due to being move about more with use and holding its moisture better in a greater volume. Maybe?
But I have never come across a situation as you've described

I also have to ask why you would recommend using a grease gun to screw into the plug hole in an Edison barrel when adding grease to the spring.
It is completely unnecessary.
With the spring fully wound as instructed, the plug is removed, and the hole is positioned so there is a huge cavity between the barrel and spring.
The original grease tube has tip around half an inch long, similar to those used on some eye ointments,, and you simply insert that tip in the hole and squeeze the tube to deliver the desired amount.
There's no pressure or resistance from within the barrel making it necessary to force grease into the barrel like you'd need to force grease into a grease nipple..
I also wouldn't recommend adding a modern synthetic grease to old grease in a barrel. I think that probably would have a greater chance of causing seperation issues in the barrel due to using completely different formula to make them, so perhaps one of the old fashioned non synthetic grease would be a safer choice with a better chance of blending together.

I'm sorry if this all seems harsh, and it's not my intention to embarrass or anger you, but I do feel we all need to be careful about giving fellow collectors advise about things we don't really know about or have very limited experience iwith.
There's so much information about anything you can think of on the internet today that's good, but bad or conflicting info is also common place, so the less of the latter two there is, the better off we all are.