Picked up an Edison Standard D

[martinola]

Hi antique1973.

The serial number of your model B puts it well into the Edison decal era (which it was). The serial number on your model D puts it into the early Late style case era. For my taste, swapping out the cases makes it having two non-original machines rather than one. I know it's a stodgy point of view and that Standards are as common as dirt, but I can't help but feel that it distorts the historical record. I've always had a soft spot for Banner Bs and yours looks good as such. It's quite a problem, because that Banner case is in such good shape. The only solution I can think of is to find an early production Model B mechanism and have one more model B. (Of course that is the path to madness...)

Regards,
Martin

[antique1973]

Hi antique1973.

The serial number of your model B puts it well into the Edison decal era (which it was). The serial number on your model D puts it into the early Late style case era. For my taste, swapping out the cases makes it having two non-original machines rather than one. I know it's a stodgy point of view and that Standards are as common as dirt, but I can't help but feel that it distorts the historical record. I've always had a soft spot for Banner Bs and yours looks good as such. It's quite a problem, because that Banner case is in such good shape. The only solution I can think of is to find an early production Model B mechanism and have one more model B. (Of course that is the path to madness...)

Regards,
Martin

Thanks for the help and insight Martin. I generally strive also to keep machines original as
much as possible. Its kind of a tough situation, since I like the banner decal and the big
blue horn. My original B's case has a cygnet bracket and will not accommodate a morning glory crane
assembly without modification to the case. I suppose I could simply tuck the foot under
the base, but without the metal bracket sleeve it could be unstable. Sorry I don't have my Frow guide with me at the moment, would you know off-hand if it would be proper to have the morning
glory style horn and crane on my original B (with the "Edison" decal)? If its ok to do that, then I could just find a large trim base for the model D and add the banner case to my spare parts bin.

[phonogfp]

Hi antique1973.

The serial number on your model D puts it into the early Late style case era.

Martin, I must respectfully disagree on this point. I had a Standard Model D 676769 with the earlier low molding which I took out of a house in 1972. The machine was untouched, so I'm quite sure its cabinet was original. (Hadn't I sent this number to you earlier? ) Like so many changes in Edison production, the switch from low molding to high molding may have taken a couple of months, with both types being briefly intermixed in early 1909.

As for your point about having 2 non-original machines, it may be the route to madness, but I certainly agree. The age of finding undickered-with machines in attics is coming to an end. I pity the poor researcher 50 years down the road who tries to form conclusions based on surviving examples. It's hard enough to do so now. Even No.676769 (alluded to above) has been in some collector's hands now for almost 40 years (I sold it in 1976 and don't know who owns it now) and I'm the only one who can truthfully vouch for its originality.

If I were Antique1973, I'd keep my eyes open for a proper cabinet with the "Edison" decal (that should be easy), and put my later mechanism into it. Then I'd hunt for an earlier mechanism (below what number, Martin?) to drop into that banner cabinet. Madness? Sure - but I'd be leaving a historically correct trail of restored machines.

George P.

[phonogfp]

Sorry I don't have my Frow guide with me at the moment, would you know off-hand if it would be proper to have the morning glory style horn and crane on my original B (with the "Edison" decal)? If its ok to do that, then I could just find a large trim base for the model D and add the banner case to my spare parts bin.

The Edison cranes became available in Oct. 1907, so you'd be fine installing that on your B cabinet. (These were available separately too, and I've seen original dealer retrofits to Model As and banner Bs.) Adding that banner cabinet to your spare parts bin is exactly what I recommended in my previous posting. If Martin will supply us with an approximate serial number beyond which the "Edison" decal was supplied, you'll know what to look for on a B mechanism.

George P.

[martinola]

Hi George and antique1973.

George, I can't find that particular number in my list. I have another one of yours there, but not the Tall case. Anyway, I've got a few Tall cases here and there listed after #650471, but for the most part the rest are Late style. Some are probably as a result of swapping, but others, like yours, who knows? (Cleaning out stocks at the factory? Or maybe a dealer drops a new model D and needs to sell it quick?) This was a confusing era of production and I'm increasingly of a mind that serial numbers may not necessarily follow order of assembly. In that way, I'm just going by likelihood of whether antique1973's machine was a Late case or not. I think it more likely that it was a Late case, but it's possible it might have been the earlier tall case.

antique1973, the cygnet crane mounting on your machine does add a further level of complication. What ever you decide to do, I'd suggest doing what Eric Reiss talks about in his book: document each machine (and each change) with photos and the old replaced part (if possible) that stays in the machine. That way, if you decide to patch up the holes in the back, you still have a document that somebody at some time did add a cygnet crane to that machine. In any case, good luck. I think it just proves out the idea that whenever you take on a restoration project, you take on two more that you didn't know about.

Regards,
Martin

[phonogfp]

Thanks Martin. I sent you a number of Standard serial numbers (you described it at the time as "Christmas morning" - remember?), but I'll re-send them. Sorry if I missed this one. I should point out to other readers that Martin and I are using different nomenclature. I describe the 2 different Standard D cabinets as "low molding" and "tall molding." Martin describes the earlier low molding cabinet as "tall case" and the later cabinet as...well, the late cabinet! Sorry for the potential confusion... Just read the above carefully and hopefully we'll both make sense.

As an explanation, I was never a fan of the term "tall case Standard" for the Standard Model B (as first described in Frow & Sefl, 1978). Since the cabinet of the B is no taller than that of the C, D, E, or F, the term is factually imprecise, and the exchange above is a good example of the confusion that its use can bring about - at least in my feeble mind. That's why my focus was on "low molding" or "tall molding."

As for serial numbers, I believe they do indeed follow order of assembly, but not necessarily order of manufacture. Evidence suggests that Edison manufactured parts which sometimes sat in inventory until after newer parts had been introduced. When these older parts were assembled into complete machines, the serial number was assigned, and thus some earlier parts left the factory after some later parts.

George P.

[ColoradoPhonograf]

Hello all,

I found this thread interesting and appreciate the insights and observations from Martinola and the research that has been accumulated there. And of course from George who has written about and seen things which I could never dream of.

I went and looked at a couple of my Standards, both of which are solid original machines. My model B has the small Edison decal on the front of the case and it's serial number is 609730. The model D I have has the base molding and is a serial number of 652613.

I do have to question George about one thing he said about all the cases being the same height regardless of model. I measured these two examples and the height of the case & bedplate of the model B is 6" . The height of the case & bedplate on the model D is 5 ½" . There is an obvious ½" difference and in 20 years of collecting I've many times heard the reference to tall case vs. shorter case styles. I understand the term and use it also.

That my input, thanks for the observations and research.

Keep Crankin'

[phonogfp]

I do have to question George about one thing he said about all the cases being the same height regardless of model. I measured these two examples and the height of the case & bedplate of the model B is 6" . The height of the case & bedplate on the model D is 5 ½" . There is an obvious ½" difference and in 20 years of collecting I've many times heard the reference to tall case vs. shorter case styles. I understand the term and use it also.

Now that's interesting! I checked 3 Standard Bs and 1 D, and they do differ from each other, as well as differing from Colorado's examples - - My D is 5 ¾" and the Bs range from 6" to 6 ¼"! Now I must admit this is news to me - - my presumption was that there would be no significant dimensional difference between the B cabinets and the later ones, and certainly no difference between those of the same model. Wrong again, George! I learn something new every day...! Thanks for the heads-up!

I still don't like the "tall case" terminology, but that's just me. My eye isn't good enough to distinguish a "tall case" at 6" and a ("short case?") at 5 ¾". The variations in height only strengthen my dislike for the term. The difference in molding is far easier to spot, and less likely to cause confusion. Call me kooky...

George P.

[antique1973]

Ok, swapped the motors back and I transferred the crane support
bracket from the banner B case. Now all I need is an extension
segment with chain and I am ready to go! I will keep an eye out
for the Standard D case with the high moulding and put the banner
case "on ice" for now. Thanks again everyone for the very informative
advice and assistance!

[ColoradoPhonograf]

George,

I'm not sure if you measured just the case or if you also got the gap from the feet where it may have been sitting on a table. I measured just the wooden case itself....not including the rubber feet.

ColoradoPhonograf