Berliner Phonograph Analysis Please

[phonogfp]

In my opinion the "NC" is a very rare reproducer.I think it is even rarer than a closed face "J".However,some may disagree with that.I myself have only ever had one chance to buy one.A lot of collectors may not know that early Johnson machines like the A,B,C and D came standard with the "NC" or you could pay a little more and get the "Concert".It looks like most went with the "Concert" based on survial rate.

No question but that the "New Century" is rarer than the "J." I don't know if the "NC" was manufactured for "a matter of months" as you stated, as I have no data on that, but clarification should be made about the original sound boxes supplied with the Johnson A-D series. If, as you say, the "NC was manufactured for "a matter of months," it would have been impossible for all the Johnson A-D series machines to have "[come]standard with the 'NC'." As a matter of fact, a late 1900 Consolidated Talking Machine Company catalogue and a pre-October 1901 Victor (Johnson) catalogue both show the A-D series machines equipped with closed-face J-type (now marked "C")and neither catalogue shows the "New Century" at all. These machines were originally equipped with either the closed-face "C", the "Concert", or the New Century" sound boxes.

George P.

[antique1973]

This thread has generated a great deal of interest and many very helpful
insights, thanks so much for all your help! The seller (who was located in
Canada) unfortunately just informed me she sold the package to someone in
Calgary, Canada. I would have been happy to refer her to the members of the
board who are better positioned to buy, but I guess its too late.

sorry to hear about that. any idea what she sold it for?

Thanks Brian, its all good. No, I don't know why she did not tell me how much. She was kind of hard to negotiate with and would not give me her expected price even. Here is an excerpt of the email:

"The man here paid us a good deal of money for it."

My guess is somewhere over $1000 but that's just my guess.

[antique1973]

I'm still in shock that it has gone to my country Canada.Calgary is not that far from me here in Vancouver.I remember selling some needle tins to an asian man there last year.I think I will email him (if I still have it) and see if he got it.Do we know what it sold for???.The 75.00 Berliner sounds like a great deal indeed.I remember a guy buying a very nice ratchet wind "complete" on a BIN for 7500.00.The seller fixed the price because that's the price that they saw in the first George & Tim book.Thanks guys..... .What most did not know about that machine was it had the exceedingly rare smaller funnel horn on it.I only know of a handful of the horn.I have one on my hand wind.The new onwer traded that horn for some very rare parts and a regular funnel horn and kept the machine.As for this machine I'm sorry to hear you did not get it.As I wrote a finders fee would have been here for you at anytime.As a follow up on the "New Century".The last one I heard sell went for 1050.00 and was a bit rough but,nice.

Thanks for the offer(s) on the finders fee, I was planning on asking for the winner to just mail me one of the Berliner records! That would have been good enough for me.

[Starkton]

Since Robert Gibson didn't file the U.S. Patent for his spring motor (No.663402) until March 7, 1900, I wonder if timing had anything to do with Seaman's choice of design.

George P.

Apparently, Gibson kept close relations with the gramophone group. It should be noted that Henry K. Smith, one of the three patentees of Gibson's U.S.-Patent 663402 was bookkeeper of the Berliner Gramophone Co.

By the way, all new designs of gramophone motors were forwarded to Eldridge L. Johnson for examination and endorsing.

[gramophone78]

George,I can only go by what is stated in "Look For The Dog".Clearly stating that most "A's" came with the "NC" and even the Monarch SD "may" have come standard with the "NC".I also know that the lucky collector's that own a "D" have all told that it came with the "NC".In fact the "D" in LFTD has a "NC".Regarding how long the "NC" was made......It could have been up to a year.All I know is it was for a very short time.I will leave it at that.

[Energ15]

I would get it! That record box is rare and in very nice shape. It could contain some interesting records and the Berliner itself is in mostly complete condition. So, don't waist any time and buy that sucker!

[antique1973]

I would get it! That record box is rare and in very nice shape. It could contain some interesting records and the Berliner itself is in mostly complete condition. So, don't waist any time and buy that sucker!

I wish I could have but she sold it to a local in Canada. I posted some details
earlier in this thread. If she was local in San Diego I would have had a better
chance I think. Win some and lose some I guess!

[phonogfp]

George,I can only go by what is stated in "Look For The Dog".Clearly stating that most "A's" came with the "NC" and even the Monarch SD "may" have come standard with the "NC".I also know that the lucky collector's that own a "D" have all told that it came with the "NC".In fact the "D" in LFTD has a "NC".Regarding how long the "NC" was made......It could have been up to a year.All I know is it was for a very short time.I will leave it at that.

I do apologize for what I'm sure looks like nit-picking, but I'm always conscious of a beginning collector possibly misinterpreting what they read here. Here's what the 2005 Edition of Look For The Dog states about sound boxes supplied with the Type A Victor: "Most Type A Victors were sold with Johnson's "New Century" or "Standard" sound box, however the "Concert" sound box was also offered for $3.00 extra." Three different sound boxes, one of which was called the "Standard" (although we call it the "J" or "C").

As for the Victor Deluxe Monarch, Baumbach writes, "The nickel-plated 10-inch turntable and "Concert" sound box were shown in the catalog, although a Standard or New Century were also possibly fitted." My point is that the customer had a choice of three sound boxes, and to state that one of them "came standard" implies that the other two might be retrofit, non-factory, or otherwise not "standard." The book shows the New Century fitted to the Type A, Type C, and Type D (hand-driven) Victor, but this isn't meant to suggest that the NC was "standard" for those models, but rather that it was an available option.

Again, I don't mean to be a fuss-budget, but I am passionate about accuracy. My apologies for these boring posts!

George P.

[schweg]

"My apologies for these boring posts!"

Boring? No way- this is when much of the good info comes out so we can learn more about our hobby! I love it when knowledgeable collectors get into good discussions like this. However, if you were in Philly, on the ice, the gloves would be off by now. Of course, Philly fans also threw snowballs at Santa and regularly booed Mike Schmidt, one of the best 3rd baseman ever!! Dang, I miss being close to home!!

Steve- sweltering in Houston!!

[Valecnik]

"My apologies for these boring posts!"

Boring? No way- this is when much of the good info comes out so we can learn more about our hobby! I love it when knowledgeable collectors get into good discussions like this. However, if you were in Philly, on the ice, the gloves would be off by now. Of course, Philly fans also threw snowballs at Santa and regularly booed Mike Schmidt, one of the best 3rd baseman ever!! Dang, I miss being close to home!!

Steve- sweltering in Houston!!

Not boring at all. Don't assume because I'm not posting much on this thread that it's boring. It's just that you are talking about something I don't know much about.