The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Edisone wrote:Rude-ish replies aside, "off-brand" is dated back to 1892 by Webster, so predates phono collectors by many decades. A machine which didn't have a network of national dealers & advertising is what "off-brand" refers to. No well-known "Brand", in other words. If it was put together by a local or regional furniture dealer, it was off-brand. If it had ads in the Saturday Evening Post, National Geographic, Munsey's, etc etc - THAT is 'ON" brand. So: Victor, Columbia, Brunswick, Edison, Pathé, and A-V are what I would consider major "brands" in America before 1930. Europe had its own major brands, of course - but the idea is the same. A furniture or department store with its own name on a phono, which might be made by or with parts from any factory = "off brand".

Somehow I doubt that in 1892 Webster was talking about "off-brand phonographs/gramophones". It is still a term that coined by phono collectors in the context of phonograph collecting, & has been used for decades to describe any machine not manufactured by "the big three".
If a network of national dealers & advertising is all it takes to be disregarded as off-brand, then perhaps someone should contact Allan Sutton, RJ Wakeman & Tim Gracyk about their list of off-brand manufacturers, which includes names like Cheney, Emerson, Heywood-Wakefield, Magnola, Modernola, oro-tone, & Pal. These companies products were all even sold here in Australia through a network of dealers, many of which advertised these brands in the larger cities major newspapers. Surely in their native USA, these companies had dealers advertising the wares too?
Heywood-Wakefield wicker furniture was sold here to the rich who wanted imported name brand wicker, so it couldn't be considered local or regional furniture, yet it appears on the "off-brand" list.
Yes, they used bought in parts from other factories, but then so did Sonora, so whats the difference?
Even IF Sonora was making their own wooden tonearms, it's highly likely that Paillard was manufacturing the metal tonearms on their behalf & supplying Sonora with them like every other part on a Sonora machine. Would this make Sonoras with wood arms major brand & those with metal off-brand?
And if you think about it, "the big three" WERE THE MAJOR BRANDS.
The rest were simply manufacturers who captured varying percentages of the market.

I think I'll just agree to disagree, but personally I think it's rediculous that when someone posts the words "Off-brand", there's always a certain few who will immediately respond with "I wouldn't consider brand X as off-brand", because they think they're pretty, or were popular, or because they have one in their collection

gramophoneshane wrote:*

I'm just saying, what does it matter what terminology was produced 50 or 60 years ago? If one wants to use terms such as "big three", then who does that include? By the 1920's, Edison was no longer one of the three largest manufacturers.

It's too bad that you need to stoop to insults, and if this is the kind of thing that gets you worked up, then I'm jealous. You must have an easy life.

Anyway, it seems necessary to your emotional well-being that we all agree with you, so I'll say I agree with you, and I hope you have a great day.

If you feel the need to make another personal attack, please just PM me, so we don't have to clutter up the board with this stuff.

Best regards, (truly)

Carl

I have a feeling that many feel that almost any brand but Victor falls in the off brand label. That may not be true, but what are the other "top' brands that are not mentioned here as not fitting that category?

Long ago I had a wonderful Sonora Grand in American Walnut. That machine had the walnut tone arm, not the worlds best sound but until this discussion I never realized that others found them lacking in sound as well. But that machine is quite sought today and demands a pretty hefty price. So like most things people collect or enjoy its all what someone is willing to pay and wants to own.

I have no aversion to odd machines that have few examples in the market place. While I haven't owned many, its mainly because I simply choose not to own rooms full of machines. But often when I see one I never heard of I still sometimes think it would make a nice addition to the ones I have. As long as the basics of the machine are well produced I see no reason to delegate it to a lower status of machine. Some machines do have poor quality overall and do not seem as likely to be satisfying in use. But then I see some highly sought name brands that made some pretty low end looking machines as well. Some of the best looking machines I have seen are Silvertones here in the country where the Sears Book was the height of shopping for the rural customer. I wish now I had purchased a couple of the finer looking of those machines.

As a side observation of the machine in question some how I have always liked the styling of many consoles, yet having owned the large Brunswick with the huge queen ann legs, I find that attaching a set of those legs to a large rectangular case is not the most pleasing of styles to my taste. I much prefer a leg that seems to suit the cabinet better.

Cant we all just play nice together . If not im taking my race track set and cars home

Victrolaman wrote:Cant we all just play nice together . If not im taking my race track set and cars home

now I'm wondering whether there might be a forum for that as well.

Geesh

Ahem. Gentlemen... Here's an early Sonora ad. The machine of which I spoke is the third from the top.
Jim

Wonder how accurate their testing methods were by todays standards? Sound good for sure.

Larry

OUCH!

1923VictorFan wrote:OUCH!

a sensible response, as if any were warranted.