The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:54 pm

anchorman wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:09 am Sometimes steel vs bamboo comes down to the quality of the records. While at a friend’s today, we found a 12” of a rabbi singing in either Hebrew or Yiddish, I wasn’t really sure which, and didn’t read the label carefully. It sounded absolutely horrible with a fibre needle, as the worn record ruined the tip quickly. Played with a steel needle it sounded very sweet indeed, even with the limited horn on his pre-orthophonic Victor victrola. I don’t have a lot of love for the older cabinet machines, but with the right records they can be very pleasant.

I am looking forward to listening to these videos tomorrow when I am able to use better speakers than my phone has.

Worn records should not be played with bamboo needles. Those worn-out records can be played only with steel needles unfortunately and sadly. Only near mint or mint or very good-condition records should be played with bamboo needles.

Hideki

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:57 pm

gramophoneshane wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:08 am Personally, I use loud tone steel needles almost exclusively.
I've never enjoyed the muted tones and volume of bamboo or cactus.
I just love the full clear loud volume you get from steel, almost as if the band is in the room with you. And judging by the popularity of loud tone steel being used for over 120 yrs, I guess a lot of people must have preferred them too.
Each to their own I suppose.

Real good machines should be able to reproduce very good sound even when they use high quality bamboo needles. Record cutting needles have a triangular jewel point, which is exactly the same shape as the tip of the bamboo needle, which means the tip fits in the record groove perfectly. I know using loud tone steel needles produce really loud tone, but its tip is just a round tip, which won't fit into the groove perfectly. If your machine produces mute tones with high quality bamboo needles, it needs to be adjusted on its pars like horn, tone arm and reproducer.

Hideki

gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:55 am

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:57 pm

gramophoneshane wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:08 am Personally, I use loud tone steel needles almost exclusively.
I've never enjoyed the muted tones and volume of bamboo or cactus.
I just love the full clear loud volume you get from steel, almost as if the band is in the room with you. And judging by the popularity of loud tone steel being used for over 120 yrs, I guess a lot of people must have preferred them too.
Each to their own I suppose.

Real good machines should be able to reproduce very good sound even when they use high quality bamboo needles. Record cutting needles have a triangular jewel point, which is exactly the same shape as the tip of the bamboo needle, which means the tip fits in the record groove perfectly. I know using loud tone steel needles produce really loud tone, but its tip is just a round tip, which won't fit into the groove perfectly. If your machine produces mute tones with high quality bamboo needles, it needs to be adjusted on its pars like horn, tone arm and reproducer.

Hideki

That "just a round trip" is ground down by abrasives in the shellac almost instantly to fit the groove perfectly, just like your high quality hand made susudake bamboo needles that you sell on eBay.
That "just a round trip" steel, torn/cactus needle also has the added convenience of being able to be inserted in the chuck without having to make sure it's pointing the right direction.
I think the reality is bamboo certainly won't start off being exact the same shape as a jewel tip record cutter unless they're being cut by some highly accurate precision machinery, so it too needs the record to grind the tip to fit the groove.

And just to be clear, it's not my machines producing the muted tones and volume, it's the needle.
Find me a bamboo needle I can use in my HMV 202 that gives me the same volume, clarity and presence of a loud tone steel and I'll use them every day, but unfortunately that is never going to happen.
Perhaps if I was the type of person who enjoyed soft tone steel sound quality and volume I could be convinced bamboo sounds better, but as a loud tone lover it's impossible.

I can't help but feel you've missed a perfect opportunity to prove your bamboo needles are superior though.
Instead of directing epigramophone to eBay to buy your needles, and record videos, why not send him a couple needles to try, then sometime later he could report back his listening comparisons?
No digital video or audio recording in the world is ever going to give you the exact same listening experience as standing in front of a machine in person will.
They can really only give you a general idea of what any machine really sounds like.

gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:55 am

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:57 pm

gramophoneshane wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:08 am Personally, I use loud tone steel needles almost exclusively.
I've never enjoyed the muted tones and volume of bamboo or cactus.
I just love the full clear loud volume you get from steel, almost as if the band is in the room with you. And judging by the popularity of loud tone steel being used for over 120 yrs, I guess a lot of people must have preferred them too.
Each to their own I suppose.

Real good machines should be able to reproduce very good sound even when they use high quality bamboo needles. Record cutting needles have a triangular jewel point, which is exactly the same shape as the tip of the bamboo needle, which means the tip fits in the record groove perfectly. I know using loud tone steel needles produce really loud tone, but its tip is just a round tip, which won't fit into the groove perfectly. If your machine produces mute tones with high quality bamboo needles, it needs to be adjusted on its pars like horn, tone arm and reproducer.

Hideki

That "just a round trip" is ground down by abrasives in the shellac almost instantly to fit the groove perfectly, just like your high quality hand made susudake bamboo needles that you sell on eBay.
That "just a round trip" steel, torn/cactus needle also has the added convenience of being able to be inserted in the chuck without having to make sure it's pointing the right direction.
I think the reality is bamboo certainly won't start off being exact the same shape as a jewel tip record cutter unless they're being cut by some highly accurate precision machinery, so it too needs the record to grind the tip to fit the groove.

And just to be clear, it's not my machines producing the muted tones and volume, it's the needle.
Find me a bamboo needle I can use in my HMV 202 that gives me the same volume, clarity and presence of a loud tone steel and I'll use them every day, but unfortunately that is never going to happen.
Perhaps if I was the type of person who enjoyed soft tone steel sound quality and volume I could be convinced bamboo sounds better, but as a loud tone lover it's impossible.

I can't help but feel you've missed a perfect opportunity to prove your bamboo needles are superior though.
Instead of directing epigramophone to eBay to buy your needles, and record videos, why not send him a couple needles to try, then sometime later he could report back his listening comparisons?
No digital video or audio recording in the world is ever going to give you the exact same listening experience as standing in front of a machine in person will.
They can really only give you a general idea of what any machine really sounds like.

poodling around wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:32 pm

gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:55 am

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:57 pm

Real good machines should be able to reproduce very good sound even when they use high quality bamboo needles. Record cutting needles have a triangular jewel point, which is exactly the same shape as the tip of the bamboo needle, which means the tip fits in the record groove perfectly. I know using loud tone steel needles produce really loud tone, but its tip is just a round tip, which won't fit into the groove perfectly. If your machine produces mute tones with high quality bamboo needles, it needs to be adjusted on its pars like horn, tone arm and reproducer.

Hideki

That "just a round trip" is ground down by abrasives in the shellac almost instantly to fit the groove perfectly, just like your high quality hand made susudake bamboo needles that you sell on eBay.
That "just a round trip" steel, torn/cactus needle also has the added convenience of being able to be inserted in the chuck without having to make sure it's pointing the right direction.
I think the reality is bamboo certainly won't start off being exact the same shape as a jewel tip record cutter unless they're being cut by some highly accurate precision machinery, so it too needs the record to grind the tip to fit the groove.

And just to be clear, it's not my machines producing the muted tones and volume, it's the needle.
Find me a bamboo needle I can use in my HMV 202 that gives me the same volume, clarity and presence of a loud tone steel and I'll use them every day, but unfortunately that is never going to happen.
Perhaps if I was the type of person who enjoyed soft tone steel sound quality and volume I could be convinced bamboo sounds better, but as a loud tone lover it's impossible.

I can't help but feel you've missed a perfect opportunity to prove your bamboo needles are superior though.
Instead of directing epigramophone to eBay to buy your needles, and record videos, why not send him a couple needles to try, then sometime later he could report back his listening comparisons?
No digital video or audio recording in the world is ever going to give you the exact same listening experience as standing in front of a machine in person will.
They can really only give you a general idea of what any machine really sounds like.

Wow ! Very interesting 'points' indeed, which equally apply to some other gramophone related issues.

gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:56 pm Yes, I saw the cutter the first time you posted it.
If you look at a used steel needle under magnification you'll see the wear will be V shaped. The needle tip wears to fit the groove.
I haven't seen a used bamboo under magnification but no doubt it too will have the same V shape worn into it because it also wears to fit the groove.
It won't simply retain its original V shape the bamboo was cut to.
Both needles points wear to fit the groove.
And if you think about the shape of a cylinder record cutter, it's a different shape to the various cylinder styli that play them.

But as I said earlier, to each his own.
I just think if steel needles are as evil as you imagine them to be, then steel needles would have become obsolete 100 yrs ago.
I've no doubt thorn and bamboo needles do less long term damage to records than steel, but Ive got many records I've been playing with steel for 40 yrs and most show no signs of significant wear.
Personally I'd rather enjoy my records without sacrificing sound quality and volume.

gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:10 pm No, not at all. He's enjoying his records how he likes them and I'm enjoying mine how I like them.

I'm not sure where you dreamt up the idea he's playing them incorrectly?

What I think Hideki is doing, is coming up with excuses to discourage using steel needles because he wants to sell more bamboo needles on eBay.

gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:56 pm Yes, I saw the cutter the first time you posted itin another thread.
If you look at a used steel needle under magnification you'll see the wear will be V shaped. The needle tip wears to fit the groove.
I haven't seen a used bamboo under magnification but no doubt it too will have the same V shape worn into it because it also wears to fit the groove.
It won't simply retain its original V shape the bamboo was cut to.
Both needles points wear to fit the groove.
And if you think about the shape of a cylinder record cutter, it's a different shape to the various cylinder styli that play them.

But as I said earlier, to each his own.
I just think if steel needles are as evil as you imagine them to be, then steel needles would have become obsolete 100 yrs ago.
I've no doubt thorn and bamboo needles do less long term damage to records than steel, but Ive got many records I've been playing with steel for 40 yrs and most show no signs of significant wear.
Personally I'd rather enjoy my records without sacrificing sound quality and volume.
I like steel needles and enjoy the sound of steel needles, but unlike yourself I'm not trying to sell steel needles. I'm merely saying imo steel needles don't seem to be the evil groove plowing rust producing record ruiners some people make them out to be.