Black / Shellac Dust On Needle After Playing, Tried Everything

[OddRomanian]

...Your issue can also be caused by hardened gaskets in the soundbox, soundbox bar adjusted too tight, a hardened isolator between the box and tone arm tube, or the tone arm joints not swinging freely at their pivots. I am not sure if you have an autobrake on your machine, but too much tension on the tripper could also be an issue.

...the rubber part between tonearm and soundbox, while It is the orignal one, It is soft (not too soft but not hardened either) and I don't know how to check the rest.

The diaphragm gaskets installed in the HMV 5a/5b sound boxes were made out of compressed FELT, so hardened diaphragm gaskets should not be an issue. If the back flange's gasket is relatively soft, then that shouldn't present problems, but I don't know how soft it was originally...

One thing to test is the needle bar tension. Remove the sound box from the tonearm, insert a needle and GENTLY pump the needle back an forth. You should see the diaphragm move slightly. If not, the tension of the support screws/small nuts is set too high, and we can walk you through the steps to adjust it properly.

In terms of records, those from the late 1920s through about the mid-1930s were specifically designed to be played on acoustic gramophones, at least in the US. When you have a chance, list a few of the troublesome records -- Label, Song Title and Record Number. That might provide a clue.

The HMV 102 portables were among the best ever designed in terms of build quality, ruggedness, weight and sound quality. Properly restored, an HMV 102 provides a room filling sound, with a strong treble, mid-range and even some bass. It should sound very much like an electrically amplified gramophone, as numerous YouTube videos indicate.

OrthoFan

Hello!

Thank you very much for the information.

I don't quite get what you mean with "pumping" the needle, if you mean inserting and then removing the needle at a pace, no, the diaphragm doesn't move. Is that what It is?

Right now I don't want to test all of my records, but two of the ones that for sure cause me problems are:

- 1 early 1900s one-sided Monarch record, which in theory should be of tough shellac


- 1 British 1945 TOPIC record with "Kalinka" & "Tachanka", which should be gine because as far as I know british records were suitable for acoustic machines until the mid 1950s

https://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/trc18


I haven't been able to find the release of the one-sided one.

Anyhow, I am certain that the dust happens with every single one of my records, from the earliest to the best condition ones, and to the later ones too, It always happens.

I hope It is the needle bar tension and I finally find a solution, when I see the needle come out with shellac dust I want to cry.

Thank you!

[jamiegramo]

The point may have been mentioned before but have you put some oil on the moving parts of the tonearm? It must move freely both side to side and up and down. Any resistance will cause record wear. Check to see there is no stiffness. Also oil the automatic brake as this can cause resistance on the tonearm causing record wear.

[OddRomanian]

The point may have been mentioned before but have you put some oil on the moving parts of the tonearm? It must move freely both side to side and up and down. Any resistance will cause record wear. Check to see there is no stiffness. Also oil the automatic brake as this can cause resistance on the tonearm causing record wear.

It was serviced (so I assume oiled) before I bought It, either way, everything moves freely

[OrthoFan]

...I don't quite get what you mean with "pumping" the needle, if you mean inserting and then removing the needle at a pace, no, the diaphragm doesn't move. Is that what It is?

It sound like the records are okay. By "pump" I meant grab the end of the inserted needle and GENTLY move it back and forth in the direction required to play the record.

There should be a perceptible/tiny movement of the diaphragm.
OrthoFan

[OddRomanian]

...I don't quite get what you mean with "pumping" the needle, if you mean inserting and then removing the needle at a pace, no, the diaphragm doesn't move. Is that what It is?

It sound like the records are okay. By "pump" I meant grab the end of the inserted needle and GENTLY move it back and forth in the direction required to play the record.
Screenshot 2024-10-20 080047.jpg
There should be a perceptible/tiny movement of the diaphragm.
OrthoFan

Just tried It and I am almost certain there is absolutely 0 movement and that the whole needle bar assembly is stiff as stiff can be.

I'm not sure if I did right, so here is a short video, tell me your opinion:

https://imgur.com/a/oUDnUyv

(Sorry about my grip, It is as strong as that of a geriatric armless creature and the whole soundbox is moving in my hand, either way I think the lack of movement by the diaphragm itself is noticeable)

Thank you for taking the time to help me! : )

[Sidewinder]

can you please post a picture of the needle actually playing on the record

[OrthoFan]

(Sorry about my grip, It is as strong as that of a geriatric armless creature and the whole soundbox is moving in my hand, either way I think the lack of movement by the diaphragm itself is noticeable)

Thank you for taking the time to help me! : )

Your more than welcome. I'd try putting a few drops of very light weight penetrating oil--or even WD 40--on the pivot joings to see if that helps.

There should be some slight "flexing" of the diaphragm when inserting a fresh needle and tightening the thumbscrew. If that doesn't improve the flexibility, then a slight adjustment of the needlebar's tension would be needed. Again, one of the members can probably walk you through the steps better than I can.

I also agree, as "Sidewinder" noted, a short video of a record playing would be helpful.

OrthoFan

[OddRomanian]

(Sorry about my grip, It is as strong as that of a geriatric armless creature and the whole soundbox is moving in my hand, either way I think the lack of movement by the diaphragm itself is noticeable)

Thank you for taking the time to help me! : )

Your more than welcome. I'd try putting a few drops of very light weight penetrating oil--or even WD 40--on the pivot joings to see if that helps.
Screenshot 2024-10-20 101124.jpg

There should be some slight "flexing" of the diaphragm when inserting a fresh needle and tightening the thumbscrew. If that doesn't improve the flexibility, then a slight adjustment of the needlebar's tension would be needed. Again, one of the members can probably walk you through the steps better than I can.

I also agree, as "Sidewinder" noted, a short video of a record playing would be helpful.

OrthoFan

I am unable to find very lightweight penetrating oil, I've found normal penetrating oil but not sure If It'd work. And besides, after using those two drops the whole bottle will go to waste.

Can't I just adjust the needlebar directly?

I can of course send a video. Just tell me if the era of the record played matters and what angles of the soundbox should I show!

Thank you!

[Inigo]

I'm afraid the two examples you've said are prone to produce black dust. The one sided monarch may be worn and degraded, and the Topic may be too modern for the 102. It also depends on the country of manufacture of the records.
You said that the phenomenon has happened after the change of needle supply, isn't it? So clearly the first suspects are the needles themselves. They are different from what you were using before. Don't you keep some of the old needles, although used and worn out, to compare with the newer ones?
Although after seeing your video I want to ask... Has the soundbox suffered any hard kick out something? A kick could have impacted the pivots and this the needlebar oscillation is frozen. If this was the case anyway you may notice a much poorer sound.

[OddRomanian]

I'm afraid the two examples you've said are prone to produce black dust. The one sided monarch may be worn and degraded, and the Topic may be too modern for the 102. It also depends on the country of manufacture of the records.
You said that the phenomenon has happened after the change of needle supply, isn't it? So clearly the first suspects are the needles themselves. They are different from what you were using before. Don't you keep some of the old needles, although used and worn out, to compare with the newer ones?
Although after seeing your video I want to ask... Has the soundbox suffered any hard kick out something? A kick could have impacted the pivots and this the needlebar oscillation is frozen. If this was the case anyway you may notice a much poorer sound.

As mentioned, I gave two examples but said It happens with most of my records.

Sadly, I didn't keep any of the first needles I used, but I asked the seller where did he buy them and he said from a man in Bedford. Who is in Bedford? Soundgen.

I don't think the soundbox received any kicks, and the sound always mantained the same quality.

Could this actually be a needle bar tension problem?

Thank you for the help!