The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I apologise if this all is tedious.

My reasons for continuing this thread are:

1) I don't really know what I am doing, I am bumbling along here, finding my way, and I sometimes get good, helpful suggestions from people here. Thank you, JerryVan, in particular.

2) This site is great, but it does not well understand the perspective of beginners and is not always entirely sympathetic to them. It does not always understand not understanding, and sometimes there is (unintentional?) condescension bordering on abject contempt. Things that seem tediously obvious to people of 40 years of more of experience are not at all obvious to someone with no experience--theory of mind--what is inside your head is not the same as what is inside other people's heads--they do not intuitively share your life experience--this does not make them stupid, only inexperienced.

So, I am documenting what I do and learn (in a detailed, open, and friendly manner, I think) in the hope that it will be helpful to other beginners who may find this thread.

3) The Robert's Bestone is an unusual and interesting machine, interesting at least to me. Leather. Aluminium. Art-Deco styling. Unusual functional design in some areas. I hope others find it interesting, too

So I continue ...

The Donor Crank:

I was running out of rust remover, so I used the Aesop's Fables rust remover conservation method. My wife does not know that I used one of her favourite small flower vases.
The crank after the rust remover bath, a bit of light steel wool polishing, a light application of palm wax, a hard polishing with aluminium foil, a second application of palm wax, and some buffing with a soft cloth.
I am still practising centre drilling steel rod (and learning from failure), so I haven't attempted adapting the crank, yet.

Gosh! It looks fantastic! Great job...

Lah Ca wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:10 pm
2) This site is great, but it does not well understand the perspective of beginners and is not always entirely sympathetic to them. It does not always understand not understanding, and sometimes there is (unintentional?) condescension bordering on abject contempt. Things that seem tediously obvious to people of 40 years of more of experience are not at all obvious to someone with no experience--theory of mind--what is inside your head is not the same as what is inside other people's heads--they do not intuitively share your life experience--this does not make them stupid, only inexperienced.

Very well stated. It's because of your individual "life experience" that makes your approach to restoration very interesting. Whenever I find myself mentally questioning your techniques, I am later impressed by your successful outcomes. New perspectives give new learning experiences for all.

Also, thank you for your kind words. Very happy to have been helpful.

I would like to do a good job with the crank modification, better than with my lag bolt crank which is crude but functional.

But ... after attempting to do crank adaptation prototyping with steel rod, I have finally given up on my drill press.

It is a very old Ryobi DP101. It does not have its chuck on a mandrel that can be removed with a wedge through a slot in the side of the shaft. The mandrel stays in the machine. The chuck is hammered on to the mandrel with a mallet. This was never a very satisfactory set up. I was never able to get the rotation of the chuck really well centred, and over the years, it has gotten slightly worse. For most things I use it for it is accurate enough. But it is not accurate enough for finer metal work. I cannot centre drill metal rod.

Don't buy cheap tools, if you can afford better and need better.

My only consolation here is that I couldn't afford better at the time, and I have never really needed better before.

So I have mounted one of my knock-off dremel tools on my table saw and squared the blade with the table saw top and its mitre. I need to build a better sled for the rod, one accurately centred, and I need to mount blocks on the mitre board that limit the travel of sled to the extent of the ⅛" cut. I have done two proof of concept cuts, slowly and patiently, sort of freehand for centring, and they are not bad.

It has a Frankencrank; it is officially now a Frankenphone.

With my dremel-type tool table saw, the crank turned out much better than the lag bolt crank which I did completely freehand with a hacksaw, a the rotary tool, and a bench grinder. It also went much faster.

The cut is more accurately centred, but the little dremel-type tool was not the best for the work. The chuck, the mandrel, and the blades are too flexible. And the work was a bit too hard for the poor little beast. The cut kind of tapers in a bit, getting narrower. I have filed it out a bit more.

It does not meet my dreams of machine shop perfection, but it works.

But the important thing is that it has been cleaned and put into proper function, and it has been renovated, has s good old aspect, while showing some war bounds and history of use, and it is ready for another 100 years of enjoying! Nice work!
Don't be cruel with yourself... You got this result with what you have at hand, and MUCH LOVE, and this can be seen at the instant...
It's a Marvel!!!!

Inigo wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 12:43 am But the important thing is that it has been cleaned and put into proper function, and it has been renovated, has s good old aspect, while showing some war bounds and history of use, and it is ready for another 100 years of enjoying! Nice work!
Don't be cruel with yourself... You got this result with what you have at hand, and MUCH LOVE, and this can be seen at the instant...
It's a Marvel!!!!

Thank you.

Inigo wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2024 12:43 am Don't be cruel with yourself...

Yes. There is nothing crueller than a perfectionist with limited but developing skills.

Better a cruller than crueller:
Other notes:

1) I did not take the crank shaft down to the non-threaded section, which would have been best for strength. I could have done this; the shaft is long enough, but seeing how the Garrard 3 motor destroys cranks, I thought I would leave this option open for later.

2) The reproducer.

The vendor of the mica diaphragms came through with a new and much nicer diaphragm. Another retraction and another apology to the vendor.

I read EdgarFB's thread on the weak-bass HVM 5a with great interest: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57434

The Bestone reproducer, with the right needle and record combination, is very good from the mid mid-range up into the treble, very bright and very clear. It does, however, lack bass response (which may actually be a boon with the smallish aluminium sheet metal horn). I am wondering if the silicone weather stripping I used as needle bar dampeners is not too thick and is thus keeping the bar too tight and thus limiting bass response I may redo this later with 1/32" gum rubber.

I like the natural gum rubber I used for the washer-gasket between reproducer and the tone arm. Being relatively soft, it both seals well and dampens well. I have tried the old original washer and the new gum one with the same record. I think (possibly imagine) that I can hear a positive difference with the new gum, but whether I could actually hear it in a double blind test ... hmmm ...

When I redo the reproducer again, I will replace the old internal back flange gasket with a new gum one--the old one is sealing perfectly put it is so hard that it will have practically no dampening effect at all. The entire back flange assembly is isolated from the reproducer back plate by this washer gasket. The screws that affix the assembly to the back plate cannot be driven fully into the plate so there is always a gap between the retainer and the plate--it sort of floats off the plate. Someone in the past had tried to seal the gap with bees' wax--whether this was done at the factory or by someone servicing the machine at a later date I do not know.

3) The O-ring seal between the tone arm and the horn needs to be replaced with something else. It is starting to disintegrate from too much use. I go shopping today.

4) The leather hinge for the lid is not faring well, either. Too much use. I will need to take the case into a leather specialist shop.

5) The motor. My colleague from CAPS, donor of the crank, said the Bestone is a 100-year-old gramophone. It works without any major problems. The motor is noisy. So what? Leave it alone.

If I really wanted to do something I could take the top and bottom plates and the spindle shaft to a clock maker and have them drill out the bearings, centring them, put in bushings, and then burnish the spindle shaft. This would probably be cheaper than going to a machinist who would have to make the bushings because a clock maker would most likely have bushings already in stock.

And the spring, which is not causing any problems at the moment besides being small and weak, could be cleaned and re-lubed, but getting more power out of the spring will also put more stress on the old motor.

I went in person yesterday to the store front of a major Canadian industrial supplier, one allied with a US one.

I took the O-ring gasket from the tone arm, the seal between the tone arm and the horn, to see if they could help me find something to replace it. It was an absolutely pointless exercise. The person at the counter knew nothing other than how to put part numbers into his computer terminal. "Bring a part number, and I will see if we have something in stock or have to order it. Or you could just web order."

So today, after a couple of tries I cut a decent enough square-profile gasket out of ¼" natural gum sheet rubber. It looks big and bulky, but if it were rounded, it would be exactly the same size as the original. It fits securely. And being soft and compliant, tt seals the horn to the tone arm quite well. It sounds better than the dried up, cracked, shrunken original.

It will serve until I can find something that better approximates the appearance and function of the original (when it was new).

Of course it's only a matter of time that you'll find the exact replacement, but this interim solution would not make me feel ashamed at all... If it seals the joint and works well... In repairing gramophones and making them work, sometimes we must go to imaginative solutions like these...
I must make clear that I'm l not desperate to make these things completely 100% original... The passing of time is unavoidable, but they are such good quality that still you can make them work well. And some solutions you may find work better than the originals, are reversible, even correcting some original design flaws... What more can be asked for?

Looks fantastic! Very appropriate looking and neatly done.