Please help identify this machine

[ldelin]

I'm new to this, but really enjoying all that I'm learning and the fine folks I'm getting to know. I wonder if anyone here might be able to identify the machine in the three photos here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59638349@N04/

I'm told by the owner it came here from Europe with his immigrant grandmother approx 100 years ago. He's 80, and he and his cousins used to ride on the turntable as small children.
He says it still winds up and spins and plays to some degree.
That liquid solder on the horn, courtesy of his brother-in-law, circa 1960.
I may have a chance to buy it, and I'm wondering if someone could give me some idea as to it's current value, and it's restored value.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help; and I've really enjoyed reading your posts and looking at your photos. This is a great forum with some really nice folks.

[Uncle Vanya]

You have a American Columbia built "Client machine" from the 1913-1916 period. These inexpensive machines often used imported motors and imported embossed horns. Your particular machine appears to have suffered a motor transplant at some time in its past. This model was sold under the "Royal" and "American Women's League"brands, among others.

[ldelin]

Thanks very much for your swift reply. Armed with this new info, I have several more questions.

1.) Why does it seem to have two crank handles?
2.) Why do you feel it's had a motor transplant/replacement?
3.) Any guess as to it's value; now, as to what I should offer for it?
And later, as to what it might be worth restored/repaired?
4.) Where could I find more info on it?

Thanks again for your interest and assistance.

[Valecnik]

Thanks very much for your swift reply. Armed with this new info, I have several more questions.

1.) Why does it seem to have two crank handles?
2.) Why do you feel it's had a motor transplant/replacement?
3.) Any guess as to it's value; now, as to what I should offer for it?
And later, as to what it might be worth restored/repaired?
4.) Where could I find more info on it?

Thanks again for your interest and assistance.

Regarding your questions:
1) Two crank handles because it's been cobbled together. It cannot work that way. One is probably original and, the one, now functional, linked to the cobbled motor.
2) Because it's been redrilled to accomodate the second crank.
3) Something like this is worth almost nothing to a collector.
4) Forums like this. There's also a book on these Columbia disc machines but I believe it's out of print, would cost more than the value of this machine to buy the book.

Honestly, I'd advise to look for better options and don't be in a hurry to buy.

[Tinkerbell]

I will answer your first two questions with one response... any time you find a phonograph with more than one winding key (crank) opening, it is because the motor was replaced with one not original to the phonograph. Because the replacement motor is not the same, things like winding keys do not line up/match with existing openings, so new holes are drilled in the case.

That explains why you have two winding keys... only one is functional. The seller probably put the other one through the other opening because it was there, or they didn't know the difference.

[estott]

What we really need is a look inside the machine to see what the motor is, and the condition.

[ldelin]

After it was identified here, I found this same "Royal" machine listed on ebay for 850.00 in not-working condition. (It's with an antique dealer and it's asking price.) I also see a similar listing in MI with no pics for 150.00.
It appears from photos of the other one, that the original crank is still in it's proper hole, and that the second crank is taking the place of either the speed control or plunger. (or both) My point is, that second hole appears original.

The only difference I see in the two is the reproducer head which looks slightly different. Other than that, every part matches up. (horn, turntable, tone arm, bracket, cabinet, wood species, etc.)

Let me say that I'm looking for a rear mount, exterior horn machine to rebuild and keep. I think they're beautiful, and based on the prices I see for nice ones, this one seems like a good place to begin if it sold for a about hundred. I'd be doing the work myself, so labor isn't an issue. I think the horn on this machine is very pretty, liquid solder not withstanding; and repairing the horn's few other flaws would seem doable. So considering what's been pointed out so far, would I be nuts to pursue this machine?

Again, many thanks to all who've taken time to reply. It's nice to find folks who are so willing to share their time, knowledge, and info.

[estott]

If the motor is in decent shape this machine should be very fixable. Valecnik was being a bit sweeping when he said something like this is worth almost nothing to a collector.

[Valecnik]

If the motor is in decent shape this machine should be very fixable. Valecnik was being a bit sweeping when he said something like this is worth almost nothing to a collector.

Hmmm... Estott, Maybe so. Maybe I should have said it's worth almost nothing, to me. However if one could get it extremely cheaply and do all the work oneself, it could be a fun project for the restorer, I guess.

[ldelin]

Here's the link to the ebay item:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Talking-M ... 416717217b

And again the machine in question:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59638349@N04/

Looks like the same machine to me. Now though, the owner tells me his brother wants to keep it. I've offered him $ 100.00 based just on the photos. I really like that horn........

Thanks again to everyone. I'm a disaster worker, and it looks like I'm headed to the gulfcoast next week. Any ideas for where to look once I'm down there? I worked the floods in Minot, ND last year; and I notice that there are motors and parts for sale now from that area. I assume cabinets get destroyed in the flooding, so people try to sell whatever's left.