Victor M Questions

[Bill04]

I purchased this Victor M last week. I’m new to phonographs and was wondering if some of you could help me with a few questions that I have about it.

1) I found that the model M was made between 1901 and 1905. Is it possible to narrow down the date
further? I see that it has the pre-dog logo. Is it known what years this logo was used? Are there any other characteristics about the machine that would suggest a more specific date?

2) I’m concerned that I might over wind the phonograph. Is there are way to know how far it can be safely
wound?

3) It came with a case for the horn. I haven't been able to find any information about cases like these.
The case has no markings except for "JLT" on the latch. Has anyone seen cases like these?

[rgordon939]

Seeing that they made about 50,000 of them between 1901 and 1905 and that yours is about ⅓ the way through the serial number range a guess would be 1903.

Rich Gordon

[phonogfp]

At first I thought your horn carrying case was a Topham (Washington, D.C.), but a 1905 ad in the Talking Machine World shows the firm's name to be James S. Topham. Beyond that, I can only conjecture. In any event, horn cases turn up occasionally but not often.

As for winding, new collectors are often concerned about "over-winding." Don't worry about it. If the mainspring is in good condition, it can, if necessary, be carefully wound all the way (the crank will no longer turn with gentle but firm pressure). Usually 30-40 revolutions of the crank will be sufficient, but your mileage may vary. What can damage the mainspring is forcing the crank once the mainspring is fully wound. This sort of thing is done primarily by children or seriously mechanically challenged individuals. Even should your mainspring break one day, as 110 year old mainsprings sometimes do, a new one can be readily purchased for about $20, and it should last another century.

Nice Monarch!

George P.

[Jerry B.]

It looks like you did very well for yourself. Collectors call a machine like yours a "front mount" Victor. The horn mounts on the front of the machine. A later Vic M, with the horn mounted to a bracket at the back of the machine is called a "rear mount" Victor. At first glance your machine looks all original with the exception of new felt on the turntable. Also, I appears to have a "Concert" reproducer and that is more desirable than an Exhibition reproducer. The case for the horn is a huge plus. In over forty years of collecting, I have never owned a carrying case for a horn. Well done! Jerry Blais

[Lucius1958]

That is a beautiful machine! Congratulations!

[Phonofolks]

The Victor M is a nice purchase for someone whose just entering the hobby. Nice find!

[Bruce]

I have two references which are helpful in your quest.
R.W.Baumbach's "Look for the Dog" and his later text "the Victor Data Book"

The Victor Monarch (later M) was the king of talking machines when it was introduced in 1901.
I would place your machine in early to mid 1903 for the following reasons:
- the ribbed columns were introduced in 1902
- In 1903 the buyer could attain a rear mounted horn, at the same time front mounts were still available, so the serial numbers are intermixed.
- Estimates of number of Victor M machines produced; 1901 - 3,500, 1902 - 9,500, 1903 - 12,000, (total 164,701 by 1926) which would place your machine in mid 1903
- Victor M`s or III`s (new name for rear mounted horns)were produced with the barrel 561 in July of 1903.

Great machine and good luck with your new passion.

Bruce

[Retrograde]

Bill04, Does the machine have a plate on the horn support side of the case that says "Remove this plate to attach rigid arm"?

[Bill04]

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for all the great information!

I purchased the phonograph from the second owner who told me he received it as a gift from the original owner. They both seemed to have taken excellent care of it.

However, I think the reproducer needs some work. When I play a record, the sound comes and goes and is quite distorted at times. I'm wondering if there is a part missing since there is nothing to hold the part the needle inserts into to the membrane that vibrates (see photo). Could anyone recommend a place that I could send it? I saw on victor-victrola.com that George Vollema of Great Lakes Antique Phonograph is near me (I'm in Grand Rapids, MI); so perhaps I'll try him.

I have two references which are helpful in your quest.
R.W.Baumbach's "Look for the Dog" and his later text "the Victor Data Book"

The Victor Monarch (later M) was the king of talking machines when it was introduced in 1901.
I would place your machine in early to mid 1903 for the following reasons:
- the ribbed columns were introduced in 1902
- In 1903 the buyer could attain a rear mounted horn, at the same time front mounts were still available, so the serial numbers are intermixed.
- Estimates of number of Victor M machines produced; 1901 - 3,500, 1902 - 9,500, 1903 - 12,000, (total 164,701 by 1926) which would place your machine in mid 1903
- Victor M`s or III`s (new name for rear mounted horns)were produced with the barrel 561 in July of 1903.

Great machine and good luck with your new passion.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce! There is a plate next to the arm mounted to the base. Would this be where a rear mounted horn would have attach? I was curious too about the trim below the plate. It looks like a piece of trim was originally there but was removed later.

[Bill04]

Bill04, Does the machine have a plate on the horn support side of the case that says "Remove this plate to attach rigid arm"?

Yes, it does. I was wondering about the purpose for that. I included a photo of it in the message I just posted.