Darkening a Finish?

[Lucius1958]

Well, I've managed to put some new veneer on the C-250; but I'm having a lot of trouble getting the finish to match.

The gel stain, which seemed to work so well on the test piece, is far too light, especially on the back, even after several applications. A couple of coats of minimally cut orange shellac have not improved the tone much.

So, is it possible to darken a shellac finish after application, or to dye shellac to match the old finish?

Failing that, is there a solvent that will remove the gel stain enough to permit using a different stain? I'd rather not have to remove the new veneer and start all over again....

Bill

[martinola]

Hi Bill.
I'm not too familiar with gel stain. Is it a water-based stain? I've gone through a similar experience in trying to match up new stain to old. I was using aniline powder stain. I took some of the Dark Red Mahogany powder (with a very little bit of Black powder) and dissolved them in some diluted shellac. I ended-up building-up the color of the newly-sealed stain using that. One could also do a pass on the adjoining panel to alter the original tone a bit to better match. I'd be tempted to try a little of the gelled stain in shellac on some scrap wood to see if it would color and cure properly. Good luck.
-Martin

[Brad]

Gel stains are the same pigments in a very thick (Low VOC) carrier. The trick to Gel stain is the longer you leave it on, the more of the pigment is left behind. If the gel is the right color but is coming out too light, try leaving it on longer.

Another trick for darkening is glazing. This involves adding color OVER the finish. It is used extensibly by furniture manufacturers to insure the color is consistent across multiple pieces of furniture and without having to worry about the color variations between the pieces of wood from different trees. You achieve the color you want, however, you give up some of the depth and luster of a high quality finish.

I prefer to look of age and patina on my machines so a perfect minty finish is not for me. A glaze will give the look of an old machine.

I have used both methods successfully, mainly when I am trying to match the finish on a machine that I had to replace something with a piece from a different machine and it is noticeable. I won't use glazing unless I need to for the above reasons.

It comes down to what you are looking for.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I am TERRIBLE with colors. I can't tell what color to add to get the result I want. All I know is when it looks right or doesn't. Fortunately, my wife is very good with colors so I use her eyes to guide me.)

[martinola]

In that case, I'd recommend aniline powder stain. It's pure dye with no pigment to obscure the grain.

[Lucius1958]

Gel stains are the same pigments in a very thick (Low VOC) carrier. The trick to Gel stain is the longer you leave it on, the more of the pigment is left behind. If the gel is the right color but is coming out too light, try leaving it on longer.

Another trick for darkening is glazing. This involves adding color OVER the finish. It is used extensibly by furniture manufacturers to insure the color is consistent across multiple pieces of furniture and without having to worry about the color variations between the pieces of wood from different trees. You achieve the color you want, however, you give up some of the depth and luster of a high quality finish.

I prefer to look of age and patina on my machines so a perfect minty finish is not for me. A glaze will give the look of an old machine.

I have used both methods successfully, mainly when I am trying to match the finish on a machine that I had to replace something with a piece from a different machine and it is noticeable. I won't use glazing unless I need to for the above reasons.

It comes down to what you are looking for.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I am TERRIBLE with colors. I can't tell what color to add to get the result I want. All I know is when it looks right or doesn't. Fortunately, my wife is very good with colors so I use her eyes to guide me.)

As for the gel stain, I brushed it on thick, and left it for quite a while (The directions said 3 minutes: I've left it on for about a half hour)...

For glazing: what sort of dye or pigment do you use? Can these be added to shellac? That might be the best option; as I'm trying to blend the new veneer with the old finish... Not looking for a 'mint' appearance: more a 'well preserved' one.

If I could remove the gel stain from the new veneer, so that it would accept an aniline stain (without sanding through the veneer), I wouldn't mind doing that.

Bill

[Brad]

I have no experience with analine dyes so I can't speak to that. I have used both gel and regular stain as a glaze over the top of the existing finish allowing it to dry for several days, then wax on top of that. I have never covered a glaze with additional coats of finish as the pro's do, so again, I can't comment.

I have never mixed color in with shellac (gee, kind of sounds like I haven't done much ), however, one trick I have used a couple of times is to strain alcohol through the rags that I removed the original shellac and then mixed that with the new shellac. I get some of the original color (and some of the dirt) back which gives me something close to the original tone and giving some of the original look back.

If you left the gel stain on for ½ hour and it is still too light and the color is what you want, try adding a second coat, etc.

Good luck!

[Bruce]

I am currently using a NGR (Non Grain Raising) stain which I found in town at a commercial paint store. It has been a pain to get the stain even but after several tries it worked except for a couple small areas. These lighter areas became apparent after two light coats of shellack. I then wiped on the NGR stain over the shellack let it try and then applied several more coats of thin shellack (1 to 1.5 lb) I can not tell the difference.

Bruce

[Lucius1958]

Update:

I've removed the shellac and gel stain from the new veneer; and I was able to find a bit of old red aniline stain left over from a previous project. I mixed in a little nigrosene, and I think the result is much better.

The tricky part will be blending it all in with the old stain, when I get the shellac on....

Bill

[Dave D]

I have succesfully added NGR stain to shellac and lacquer to blend in the color of new wood to old. I would not use orange shellac though. I bought Zinsser shellac sealer, which I believe is simply a one pound cut of shellac and has no wax. I used this after staining to darken some newly made carving on an antique cuckoo clock. After staining and finishing the clock, I used an artist brush to add the colored shellac to the new carvings and the color came out just right.

I suggest trying it on your test piece first and plan on multiple coats. The last piece I did was an antique store regulator clock that was missing the whole lower section. After staining the whole piece with NGR stain, I added a tiny bit to my lacquer (Deft Wood Finish) and sprayed on the finish. It blended in perfectly.

The stain I used in Behlen's Solar Lux.

[Curt A]

If you aren't removing the old finish from the rest of your machine and want to blend in the new veneer, try using a finish "restorer" that mildly melts the old finish (not a stripper). Once it's melted, spread the old finish over to the new area and that blends it in. Then go over the entire area with tung oil and that has worked for me...