Record wear. A question for the experienced.

[mjbramham]

I have read with interest the recent thread about playing 78s and appropriate needle/reproducer combinations for different records. As someone who has only been collecting for about 2 years, but who undergoes a sort of bi-annual rush of paranoia about record wear, I just wanted to ask a question that I have not really seen answered well elsewhere.

For those of you that have been collecting for some time, and who play with steel needles for the most part, have you ever noticed any audible deterioration in your records? Nothing theoretical here, I am just interested as a straw pole, have you ever worn out a record through normal use, changing needle after each side, to the point where you thought 'well that doesn't sound like it used to'? The articles in Gramophone and the BBC archive and the discussions here about chiseling/heating etc. fascinate me, but there is no substitute for experience and I would be interested to know what yours is.

[epigramophone]

I have been using steel needles ever since acquiring my first machine in 1957, and have never noticed audible or visible deterioration in my records during the ensuing 56 years.

For indoor playing I use soft or extra soft tone needles depending on the record being played, always changing the needle as directed by the manufacturer.

For outdoor playing when I take a portable with one of my classic cars I use loud tone, but I only take duplicate or otherwise expendable records which I can afford to lose. This is as much a precaution against the effects of elderly car suspension systems on elderly sound equipment as the risk of premature record wear, but I would not advocate the repeated use of loud tone steel needles. If you need to use loud tone indoors, I would suggest that your soundbox needs attention.

The main causes of record wear on acoustic machines are :

1) Failure to change the needle at the correct interval.

2) Badly maintained soundboxes with rock hard gaskets and over tight stylus bar mountings.

Unfortunately it is often the case that the damage has already been done by the carelessness of previous owners.

[mjbramham]

That is helpful, thank you. What you have said is what I was expecting I think. I have spoken with one collector in my area about this and he said the same thing. Records are almost always worn when I receive them, but then most have also been filthy, warped, faded or cracked which suggests that they have received less than optimal care. This makes it hard to judge so your findings are a comfort to me! I suppose the other damage limiting step that is worth considering is that I should keep buying more records to spread the load. Oh the hardship!

[Phono48]

I too acquired my first machine in 1957, and have used only steel needles of all varieties, including, when pocket money was running short, cut-off dressmaking pins! I have had a lot of my records since then, together with many, many different machines, and can honestly say that I have noticed no deterioration on sound quality, and no visual wear. I have, however noticed that if a record is badly worn when I get it, that it wears even more, very quickly, with subsequent playings.

As to the opinion that records should only be played on machines of the same era, (acoustic vs electrical), of course I can see the logic, but remain somewhat sceptical on the subject of potential damage. I have several unbreakable vinyl 78s (i.e.The Platter's "Only You", and "I'm Sorry"), that are played regularly with soft tone steel needles on my HMV upright 12A, which is fitted with an "Exhibition" soundbox. Far from being torn to pieces, they are still in remarkably good condition after 57 years, and sound as good as ever, even when subsequently played on a 1960s radiogram with a ceramic cartridge. Maybe I've just been lucky........?

[De Soto Frank]

Another question from a long-time enthusiast also sometimes plagued by record-wear paranoia...


How about use of lubricants on record surfaces before playing ?


I was recently bouncing around You-tube, listening to various old recordings, and found one ( can't remember the clip) where an older gentleman was playing a 78 on a vintage machine in a very cluttered shop, with the motor-board equally cluttered with ... stuff... and as the turntable was coming-up to speed, he took a swipe across the record surface with some sort of stick, which left a spiral trail. Am pretty sure this was an acoustic machine.

I am assuming this was some kind of wax ?


What say ye about this practice ?

(For the record (sorry about the pun), I am presenly a steel-needle-once guy...)

[dennman6]

Another question from a long-time enthusiast also sometimes plagued by record-wear paranoia...


How about use of lubricants on record surfaces before playing ?


I was recently bouncing around You-tube, listening to various old recordings, and found one ( can't remember the clip) where an older gentleman was playing a 78 on a vintage machine in a very cluttered shop, with the motor-board equally cluttered with ... stuff... and as the turntable was coming-up to speed, he took a swipe across the record surface with some sort of stick, which left a spiral trail. Am pretty sure this was an acoustic machine.

I am assuming this was some kind of wax ?


What say ye about this practice ?

(For the record (sorry about the pun), I am presenly a steel-needle-once guy...)

You have seen the YouTube videos of the EMG Colonel, who uses a vintage EMG acoustic machine-one of the best acoustic phonos made in the UK. These machines were made through the 1930s. The Colonel presents his records "from the grange" with short spoken intros & outros, & the "clutter" that you see is usually an assortment of needle tins. I believe(though I haven't heard the Colonel say it himself) that the wax coating is supposed to lubricate either the grooves or the steel needle, with the idea being less record wear. I enjoy his videos, & they are on a long subscription list that I keep bookmarked of various YouTubers who play 78s & cylinders.

[mjbramham]

Yes, this is another subject that seems to have been discussed a lot down the years. It is wax, sometimes with the addition of other substances, but most commonly beeswax based. It is intended to lubricate the groove and some people swear by it. Personally, I have not tried it. My only reason being that I know how quickly records can gather dust, even when appropriately stored. I don't think think that wax can be helpful in that regard, although I'm sure it can be cleaned back off again. It certainly isn't the worst thing that gets down in those grooves!

[Orchorsol]

an older gentleman was playing a 78 on a vintage machine in a very cluttered shop, with the motor-board equally cluttered with ... stuff... and as the turntable was coming-up to speed, he took a swipe across the record surface with some sort of stick, which left a spiral trail. Am pretty sure this was an acoustic machine.

I am assuming this was some kind of wax ?

I've tried ordinary candle wax and it leaves a mess (perhaps no problem other than cosmetic) which is very hard to get rid of, no matter what washing and buffing. Beeswax might be better, I will try it sometime. Back in the day, EMG sold a waxy preparation for exactly this purpose - I have some (long since dried out) in something like a lipstick tube.

I recently bought a few records that were part of the collection of an EMG owner and they were "scribbled" all over with wax. Same problem, but otherwise they're near mint and play perfectly.

I've also tried graphite powder, another material that was used back in the day - VERY messy, it gets everywhere, even when you think you've cleaned up thoroughly! But it extracted much better sound from a badly worn record.

I would only ever use anything like this with a "difficult" or worn record, never routinely.

[martinola]

Have I noticed record wear?

I have two distinct memories of record wear. The first time was in the late 1970s when I first started collecting and was playing "Wabash Cannon Ball" on a VV-210. I thought I was being conservative by only playing a record 5 times on a used needle.

After meeting a long time collector who set me straight, I really didn't notice anything in the way of wear until I got my Credenza in 2003. It's got a Brass Orthophonic sound box on it that was also rebuilt in 2003. I was having fun knocking the socks off of my guests with Roger Wolfe Kahn's "All by my Ownsome" (on a Victor Scroll) with a loud tone steel needle. The record started out as an EX+ and ended up being an EX- after about 15 plays. I suspect that my Credenza is a pre-recall machine with the uncorrected tone arm tracking error. Also, I'm pretty sure that the loud passages weren't being helped by the loud tone steel needle. I have switched to using bamboo on the Credenza without any noticing any additional wear. That being said, I usually don't play my rarest records on it. (Those I reserve for my Esoteric Sound turntable.)

Regards,
Martin

[pughphonos]

I agree with epigramophone entirely--insofar as my experience goes. Change needles religiously--and make sure the reproducing elements are flexible, supple and not rock-hard--and you should be OK for TONS of play. Hundreds of plays of one disc will no doubt cause some wear, of course, but the wear should be even and hardly noticeable--especially with lateral-cut records.

When it comes to to some of the Pathé vertical-cut records with their shallow grooves, however--and especially when played on an Actuelle paper cone machine--I am convinced that record wear occurs pretty quickly as I have one of those set-ups. I've ceased playing my Pathé verticals on my Actuelle because of it--and perhaps there is some sort of repair required--though I'm inclined to believe it's a congenital problem.

Ralph