What should ‘normal’ record wear look like w/ steel needles?

[Player-Tone]

I was wondering what record wear ‘should’ look like when using steel needles. Since record wear can be impacted by an improperly working reproducer or poor needle I want to know if everything on my phonograph is working to the best of its ability.

-I am aware of fiber and wood needles, but I want to focus on reducing wear when using steel needles. I know record wear is inevitable, I just don’t want it to happen any faster than it needs to.

-Below are pictures of my needles after playing two different records. One record was mint; the other already had some minor wear but no grey spots. Both were acoustic Victor batwing records played with a Victrola No.2 reproducer-which had been rebuilt with new gaskets. I would like the opinions of other collectors; is this how your needles look after playing a record?

Read picture description for additional info:

-Thanks!

[gramophone78]

Check our past threads on this subject. There is no right answer. Your examples don't look unusual. However, I don't think many look at their needles after one play.....they are just tossed... . Good ($$) records are "not" played on these type of machine's... .

[Phono48]

A lot depends on the quality of the needles you buy. Some of the ones for sale these days won't even last for one side of a record. I just bought 400 soft tone from a supposedly reputable source. Completely useless! (The "reputable supplier" is not in the United States!)

[Player-Tone]

I’ve had some horrible needles myself until I bought from Mr. Child in England, his needles are great!

[Player-Tone]

Anybody want to look at their own phonograph while playing some records to see how it compares with these results? I decided to do this experiment again with three different reproducers playing the same record. The reproducers used were a Victrola No.2, HMV No.5B, and Heineman No.2....

Here are some pictures of my phonograph's needles after playing a single record- with all the accumulated record dust still intact at the tip. Each needle is from a different phonograph, all playing the same record and yielding similar results. The played record is a little grey, but I wouldn't consider it worn out either- this is what the average record looks like in my collection, some are better and some worse. I am using APSCO soft-tone steel needles in rebuilt reproducers. The needles were slowly removed from the phonograph with tweezers so that none of the dust would be lost when the picture is taken. I placed the US penny in for scale reference.... I know modern equipment does not have this problem, but 50% of my enjoyment of playing 78s comes from using contemporary machines- besides, I don't play rare or valuable 78s on them.

I watched the needle as it played the record under magnification- approximately 80% of the dust was created in the first few seconds as the needle is ground into shape, however it still continued to create dust as it tracked across the song itself.

Here are the pictures- how does this compare to your own phonograph's average performance?

1.jpg (43.54 KiB) Viewed 2828 times

2.jpg (25.47 KiB) Viewed 2828 times

-Thanks

[Damfino59]

The type of tone arm and the offset will also have a factor in how the needle wears down. Also portable machines with smaller horns tend to cause more wear on records. Something to do with the diaphragm having a smaller volume of air to move. There is more stress on the needle bar assembly in handling this excess energy. I've noticed this with some of my portable machines; HMV 101 & 102. Also the Victrola 50 and it's poor offset.

Some of this information comes from the Percy Wilson book "Modern Gramophones & Electrical Reproducers" 1929.

Glenn

[Cody K]

Mike, the needles in the pic that shows them next to a penny look awfully dirty to me. But it may be the starting condition of the record you tested on that makes them that way; you did note that it's a little grey. It seems to me that records that already have significant wear will be much more prone to further wear, and leave more debris on the needle; and the same with cheap dime-store records like Van Dykes, Radiex, and so on. (The dime-store labels Harmony, Diva, and Velvet Tone, having been so well made by Columbia, are exceptions to that exception.) And, as I was reminded recently in another thread, '40s pressings such as the later Brunswicks won't stand up well to a No. 2 or Orthophonic reproducer, whether I want them to or not.

To me, keeping records very clean is essential. I pretty much never play a record I've just got without giving it a thorough enough cleaning that it leaves no mark on a clean section of cloth -- even if it looks perfectly clean when I get it.

I've been using needles from Walt Sommers almost exclusively; this doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with needles from other sellers, but I'm very satisfied with Walt's so those are what I buy.

I actually do check for residue nearly every time I play a record -- just the old wiping the tip between thumb and forefinger trick -- and I tend to see very little if any residue from most records.

My goal when playing 78s is to have the needle leave no mark at all on my fingertips after playing. This doesn't mean that no wear is occurring, just that it's very minimal. I'd guess that 80% or more of the records I play (and most of mine are in or around V+ condition) leave no visible dust at all. Ones that do tend to be as I described above, shredded to some degree by a previous owner's abuse, or just plain cheap. I have one particularly well-liked Van Dyke that it almost hurts to play because I know I'll find yet another lovely little pile of coal-dust after I do.

In my opinion, nothing beats extra-clean grooves, fresh needles and a well-tuned reproducer as preventive measures against excessive wear, even given that some wear is inevitable.

You did say that a large amount of debris on your needles comes at the beginning of the record. Someone on the forum (I think it was OrthoSean) recommended a while ago letting a fresh needle go a few rounds on the outside of the record before setting it into the groove, in order to sort of break it in. I've found that very useful, too.

[Retrograde]

Player-Tone, The dust on the used needles seems a bit excessive to me. Yes, the needles do wear down a little to conform to the groove, but I don't recall ever seeing that much debris. The needle should be yielding, not the record. It's also possible that the records are not as clean as you might think.

There are before and after pictures someplace on the forum, I was not able to find them via a quick search. Anyone else care to have a crack at searching?

Needles are a personal thing. Some people like one brand over another, some don't care. I'm pretty sure I've heard about good and bad experiences with every brand of needle known to mankind. So you're likely to hear conflicting tales of needle usage and wear.

I've been using fiber (bamboo) needles which is another can-o-worms. I've also used steel needles for years on some records and the records still play just fine with no noticeable dust degradation of the grooves.

[larryh]

I will give my unscientific reply.

I have exclusively played almost all my 78s with mechanical record players for now well over 50 years. Some of those records of a classical vein were purchased in cartons from Victor which had never been opened. Those same records today sound as good as they did when I bought them. I realize that some wear is happening no doubt but if one changes the needle for every two sides at least they don't seem to effect the sound. I have heard some needles start to get fuzzy sounding toward the end of a single side. I always pull those out and toss them without using them for the opposite side of the record. Many needles will play well more than two sides but any noticeable sound change should be a warning to remove them.

As far worn records which we all get from time to time, I find that a new needle will at least bring the most possible sound from the record but once damaged the sound is no longer clear as it should have been. Some grooves are so worn the bring the motor to a halt. The soft tone stylus seem especially prone to this and My simple guess is because its so pointed it doesn't have the support of the grooves that a louder needle would have. Some players however ares simply so loud that the only way to hear them without distress is with a soft needle. My Brunswick Panatrope an the Telefunken both are extremely loud using even a medium tone.

My thought is change them every side or so, keep them out of excessive dust and you should be good to go with minimal wear unless your reproducer is causing some problem.

Although I never tried it very often and electrical pick up would be the way to go if your determined not to have any excessive wear. I have found that after playing with a steel needle the same record on a electrical pick up will be noisier than one which has not been. But when returned to mechanical play the record will return to limited surface sound in comparison. So it would seem that those who only play their records on a turntable more than likely will have better sound longer.

I also have never worried about the fact that a little dust or dirt has gotten on the records, its just a fact of life if they are exposed to sitting on a shelf or table for any amount of time and I doubt many originally obssesed over than when they were new.

Larry

[larryh]

I forgot to praise your photos, they are of extreme quality. I wish I had a camera that would produce such fine detain.. The one I have might perhaps if I could only figure out how to navigate though endless screens. Yours are a job well done.

Larry