A Real Edison Horn?

[CDBPDX]

With my Edison Standard A there was a very nice 14" horn, black with brass bell. Any way to tell if it is an original equipment Edison horn? It has no decals, 'PAT APL'D FOR' is stamped on the outside, no other identifying marks.

Thanks! Cliff

[soundgen]

Yes it is original 'PAT APL'D FOR' is the clincher ! I have never seen a repro with this !

[CDBPDX]

Yes it is original 'PAT APL'D FOR' is the clincher ! I have never seen a repro with this !

Cool! Thanks!

[long_island_phono]

Cliff,

Some of the 14" black and brass horns actually lack the patent stamp mark so checking for one is not always a surefire way to determine authenticity. In my opinion the best way to tell original horns apart from reproductions, other than looking at patina, would be to check for a rolled seam where the brass bell and black painted sheet metal body are joined. I am aware of no reproduction to date that has replicated this seam. Your close-up pictures provide a great detailed view of the rolled seam found on all original horns.

Also, while these horns were supplied with Edison products I believe they were independently produced and sold wholesale to phonograph and phonograph supply companies to then be sold to the general public whether with machines or not. Perhaps someone else can chime in on the subject!

-Jake

[soundgen]

But this one has the patent mark so it is original yes or no ? Or do some repros have stamps ?

[Jerry B.]

Yes, it's original but many are original without the patent mark. The key is the rolled seam where the black meets the brass. Always check for that clue. Jerry

[Le0]

some repros do have the rolled seam though it doesn't meet nicely as on an original. (the bell is smaller than the cone)

[phonogfp]

Here's what I offered to a similar discussion in August 2012:

Most original cylinder horns manufactured before 1905 will have the smaller end constructed much like the one shown by Martin [a straight tube soldered into the body]. I believe the Tea Tray Company was the first to patent a stamped & joined small end for a horn (that's the April 22, 1905 patent we often see on horns). Others soon developed similar designs. Edison never manufactured cylinder horns (except for the Amberolas). Edison-supplied external horns were made by outside manufacturers such as Tea Tray and Standard Metal Manufacturing Company.

The fact is that not all original horns have any markings, patent or otherwise (in fact most don't). Not all original cylinder horns will have the seam running the length of the smaller end (in fact, very few will before 1905, with exceptions such as the small aluminum horns supplied for the Graphophones).

So how do you tell?

1) On the earlier designs where the small end consists of a tube soldered to the tapering section, check for the tube to be brass. Reproductions will often use copper.

2) Check the imaginary line from the tapered section to the bell. They should line up. Reproductions will often have a bell section that's a bit larger than the tapered section or vice versa. Look for that continuity.

3) Look down the throat of the horn from the wide end. Sometimes (but not always) reproductions will have subtle concentric lines in the bell from the spinning process. I've never seen these on originals (but good reproductions won't have them either).

4) If the horn is a larger one (more than 15" long), chances are it's an original. Some larger reproductions have been made, but I've seen comparatively few of them. If there's a question, check the hanger. If you've examined hundreds of antique phonograph horns, you'll be able to spot a reproduction hanger. Also, check #1 above. Check the construction of joints, soldering, etc. There's no substitute for experience.

George P.

[edisonphonoworks]

Most above have it right !!! The originals have very nice round bead on the outside where the bell meets the cone You can usually tell by the build quality and the paint. PTD Applied for on some of them (this is a good sign it is original. All brass horns have no markings, these are going to be harder to determine as the reproduction all brass, for the suitcase Homes and Standards, do have the bead on the outside like originals, and have a brass tube bottom to the reproducer, The bell however is smaller, and you can see lines on them when you get them from the supplier, but are usually gone if you polish them, as they usually have started to tarnish.