A question of finishes....or restoring my VE9-55 cabinet

[richardh]

I have a very simple question about the type of finishes used on Victor machines...at what point did they switch from using shellac to lacquer? I am looking to repair some water damage on one side of the cabinet of my VE9-55 (made in 1927) and was wondering just what the finish was. I have tried using some solvent on a hidden bit to see if the finish dissolves (a test for a shellac finish) but the test was inconclusive.....the cloth was brown but I am not sure if that was dirt or finish on the cloth.

Is anyone able to confirm what the finish would have been? What ever the finish turns out to be I would welcome any tips on applying new finish...what preparation I should do, how the finish should be applied etc.

RJ

[maginter]

Hi Richard -

VIctor started using lacquers in 1925. Your 9-55 is lacquer. Are the water marks white or black. If they are white they can be floated out with a "Blush Remover". If they are black in color, then it is all the way down to the wood and you would literliy have to sand them out past the finish and well into the wood. If they are black you I would leave them if the rest of the finish is fine. If you need help if they are white. Drop me a line and I can talk you through it.

Mark

[richardh]

Mark,

thanks for the confirmation of the finish. I though that was probably the case...but it is nice to have it confirmed. With regards the finish problem...my machine was at some point badly stored and one end of the machine must have spent some years getting very damp. The result was that the finish in palces has come away leaving just the stain. However the finish hasn't come away evenly and has left a bumpy surface.

What I thought I would do would be to fix down the veneer when it has raied. But wan't sure how best to proceed. If I sand it...even lightly I may remove the brown stain but I need to do something as the surface is not smooth. Any advice on preparation and also the refinishing process with lacquer would be very welcome. I will take a few pictures later today and post them ...which will hopefully show the problem I am dealing with.

RJ

[Steve]

There is little doubting that if you sand the lacquer, you will lose the colour! Victor / HMV switched to precoloured lacquers in 1925. The dark brown pigment is actually in the lacquer itelf and not the veneer. It's a very tricky job and I don't envy you.

[richardh]

Yes, its really weird. I thought that the Colour was in the top finish but where it has come away its still the same colour underneath. There may of course be some colour in the top finish but it looks like the stain is primarily on the wood itself.

But I agree, I'm not looking forward to dealing with it and am going to proceed with extreeme caution and get any hints and tips BEFORE I do anything. Luckily there is some damage on the back of the cabinet and the motor board has the same problem (I have another original motorboard that I can replace it with) so I can experiment in these areas before I move onto the more exposed side of the machine.

If anyone has any experience of dealing with a lacquer finish from this period which they have needed to do something with I sure would appreciate any comments. One other question I also have is how to best to bring back the gloss to undamaged areas of lacquer?

Mark - I'll drop you an email as well.

RJ

[maginter]

Mark,

thanks for the confirmation of the finish. I though that was probably the case...but it is nice to have it confirmed. With regards the finish problem...my machine was at some point badly stored and one end of the machine must have spent some years getting very damp. The result was that the finish in palces has come away leaving just the stain. However the finish hasn't come away evenly and has left a bumpy surface.

What I thought I would do would be to fix down the veneer when it has raied. But wan't sure how best to proceed. If I sand it...even lightly I may remove the brown stain but I need to do something as the surface is not smooth. Any advice on preparation and also the refinishing process with lacquer would be very welcome. I will take a few pictures later today and post them ...which will hopefully show the problem I am dealing with.

RJ

I think that you are on the right track. I would use a hide glue to attack the veneer. Franklin makes a very nice version. No heat, long work time. I would make sure that it is absolutely clean under the veneer. Then apply a generous amount of glue. Place a piece of food grade wax paper over the glue joint big enough to keep the glue off of your clamp or weight. Let it dry. Peal the wax paper. With a damp paper towel with warm water, gently wipe over the glue surface to remove the excess glue. Once that is all complete, then the finishing can begin.

On the 9-55 there is a little lacquer tinting, but it is minimal. At this point, I would not be concerned with that, especially on the side. All the veneer should be down tight at this point. If you have a high spot, you can do a very light sanding. If you go through the lacquer and the finish, it can be touched up. Once these spots are level, look for voids or gaps in the veneer. The 9-55 is an “Open Grain” finish, so it is pretty easy to repair as long as you don’t get too aggressive. If you have voids or gaps in the grain, they can be filled with colored putty or a shellac stick. Just make sure that what you use is finish safe…. No insolvent waxes or silicon. If you use one of these the finish will never stick.

Now if you have several or a few light spots from working the finish they need to be touched up. This can be done with an Aniline Dye. The color you want is “Perfect Brown”. This is an industry standard color so it is not really manufacturer dependent. You want to buy this in the powder form. This is the trail and error portion of the touch up. With experience, it gets easier, but don’t get frustrated. Just take your time. Use a very, very small amount of dye and a very small amount of Denatured Alcohol. Even if it is a water mix Aniline Dye still use alcohol. Water will raise the grain and create other problems later. Depending on the size of the defect, you want to use a toothpick or a cotton swab. At this point, pick an inconspicuous spot on the cabinet that you can experiment on. I find that the lower the better. Start staining the spot and add dye or alcohol accordingly. You want this spot to look a little lighter that the finished area. Once you apply finish, it will be darker. If you overshoot, take a rag wet with alcohol and wipe the spot and start over. Also be careful to stay within the spot while staining. If you go outside it can be dry wiped to keep the trace lines down.

Now it is time for the finish. On the 9-55, I use a satin lacquer. I use Behlen and Star spray finish products. I am not sure what you have access too in the UK, but any high quality spray manufacture will work. In a real pinch you can use a spray acrylic. From a distance of 18 to 24 inches, make a few light passes over the touched up area. Don’t worry about overspray. DO NOT apply this heavy. It is a complete refinish because the grain will be filled and it will not be right. You don’t need much to protect the repair. Once the new finish is dry take some 0000 Steel wool and lightly wipe over the repair in the direction of the grain. Do not rub, but make enough passes to get a good visual match of the gloss from the original finish.

After you are complete and you need to make a color adjustment you can use a tinted lacquer. The color you need is “Van Dyke Brown”. Again an industry standard. I STRONGLY suggest that you practice spraying this before you attempt to do it on the 9-55. Then again from a distance of 18 to 24 inches, make a few light passes over the touched up area. DO NOT apply this heavy. It is a complete refinish because the grain will be filled and it will not be right. You don’t need much to protect the repair. Once the new finish is dry take some 0000 Steel wool and lightly wipe over the repair in the direction of the grain. Do not rub, but make enough passes to get a good visual match of the gloss from the original finish.

Good luck and let me know if you have more questions…..

Mark

[richardh]

Mark,

thanks very much for all that information I plan on tackling the issues with the cabinet one by one..and that should certainly help me sort out that one. I have attached below some photos of some of the faults I will need to deal with...some minor, others.....well a bit more tricky. Three out of the four corner joints are spreading and will need to be reclosed...although im not sure how I will do this yet. There are some dings and digs which I plan to either try raising using the hot / cold method for the small dents and some coloured wood filer for the small digs.

One one of the doors there is a carved shield where part is broken away - there I think I will need to call in a professional to remake the missing part. Some joins on the doors have also spread but I think these will be easier (hum, I hope!)

I have attached a photo showing where the finish has come away. Which I will be using Marks advice to improve.

Oh and whilst I was taking the pictures I noticed one of our cats sat in the tree so the last photo is a purly gratuitous cat photo!

RJ

[Brad]

RJ,

I had a similar problem with the laquer finish on my VV1-70 where some of it had come off. I did pretty much as Mark recommended and was pleased with the results. I lightly sanded the area, applied a little stain (though I probably made due with what was available from the local home center), then used a small hobby airbrush to spray the laquer. It is not perfect, but the results were pretty good. Given that is is in an area that is not seen closely, you can't tell.

Here are before and after shots.

Brad

[richardh]

Brad,

that looks like it came out really well. Before I stain or spray anything I am going to practice on an old motor board before working on the actual cabinet. Because the areas I am dealing with are quite large...I am worried about mucking it up.

I do have large areas of dulled laquer finish - is there anything I can do to bring this back up to a nice satin sheen again?

I think what I am going to do is work on some of the simpler faults first before working up to the refinishing bits. One of the main difficulties with working on the 9-55 is its sheer size and weight. It is very difficult to move about by yourself - even with all the electrical components removed from it - and my wife has limits on her patience when I keep asking her to come out to the garage to help me move it!

RJ

[Brad]

Brad,

...
I do have large areas of dulled laquer finish - is there anything I can do to bring this back up to a nice satin sheen again?

I am not an expert and don't have a lot of experience so I would defer to the experts. One thing I do know is that laquer is favored by finishers because you can apply an overcoat at any time and it will flow into the old finish. I just don't have the experience to comment from.

It is very difficult to move about by yourself - even with all the electrical components removed from it - and my wife has limits on her patience when I keep asking her to come out to the garage to help me move it!

Sounds to me like you have the justification to spread out some plastic and move it into the dining room or living room and work on it there. Not only would your wife be right there to help move it when you asked, she would also be motivated to help you get the project finished quickly!