Canadian VV 4-3

[NateO]

Hi all,
I found this on the local craigslist, and got it for $40. The motor runs okay, but is missing two governor springs, and the pot metal parts are broken. The worst issue was a can of gold paint, which had been dropped and coated the cabinet. Thanks to the forum, I tried using mineral spirits and steel wool, which successfully removed nearly all the paint. The finish is a little rough, but the walnut sure is beautiful!
As usual, I have a few questions
When should a pot metal reproducer be considered dead? Mine is full of cracks, and I can hear the ball bearings rolling around inside.
Would Howards "Restore a Finish" be useful on the lid? I have never used it, but I want to avoid a complete refinishing.
What does the little "R. D. 1927" on the data plate mean? Was it made in 1927?
I'm also curious what an original Orthophonic grill cloth looked like. The cloth on this machine looks almost too nice, considering the other issues it has.

Sorry for all the questions, but I would be grateful for any help!

Nathan

[FloridaClay]

"Restore-A-Finish" can work surprisingly well. I have a Columbia Viva-Tonal console that had set in a garage with junk piled on top of it for years. Needless to say, it was scratched all to heck. You can still see the scratches and scuffs when the light hits it just right at an angle, but they have disappeared visually to casual observation; enough that it looks nice in my living room.

You might want to have Peter Wall in San Francisco take a look at your Orthophonic reproducer. He can sometimes work wonders with them, and if it is beyond hope, he will tell you and I would trust his judgment on that.

Can't comment on grille cloth, as I don't have a 4-3. Some of the Forum members who do may be able to comment. It would be good to add a picture of your machine showing the cloth.

Clay

[NateO]

"Restore-A-Finish" can work surprisingly well. I have a Columbia Viva-Tonal console that had set in a garage with junk piled on top of it for years. Needless to say, it was scratched all to heck. You can still see the scratches and scuffs when the light hits it just right at an angle, but they have disappeared visually to casual observation; enough that it looks nice in my living room.

You might want to have Peter Wall in San Francisco take a look at your Orthophonic reproducer. He can sometimes work wonders with them, and if it is beyond hope, he will tell you and I would trust his judgment on that.

Can't comment on grille cloth, as I don't have a 4-3. Some of the Forum members who do may be able to comment. It would be good to add a picture of your machine showing the cloth.

Clay

Thanks Clay. I will have to give the "Restore a Finish" a try. I think my 4-3 suffered the same fate as your Viva-Tonal did. Thankfully, the layer of filth helped the paint come off!
I will have to give Peter Wall a try. I don't think I could afford a replacement reproducer now, with all the other parts I need.

I have run into another problem with the machine. The internal horn isn't screwed into the cabinet like it should be, at the tonearm base. The holes in the iron horn don't line up with the holes in the board. It looks like the horn needs to move further forward, but it can't. I'm not sure how to photograph the problem, but does anyone have suggestions?

[gramophone78]

"Restore-A-Finish" can work surprisingly well. I have a Columbia Viva-Tonal console that had set in a garage with junk piled on top of it for years. Needless to say, it was scratched all to heck. You can still see the scratches and scuffs when the light hits it just right at an angle, but they have disappeared visually to casual observation; enough that it looks nice in my living room.

You might want to have Peter Wall in San Francisco take a look at your Orthophonic reproducer. He can sometimes work wonders with them, and if it is beyond hope, he will tell you and I would trust his judgment on that.

Can't comment on grille cloth, as I don't have a 4-3. Some of the Forum members who do may be able to comment. It would be good to add a picture of your machine showing the cloth.

Clay

Thanks Clay. I will have to give the "Restore a Finish" a try. I think my 4-3 suffered the same fate as your Viva-Tonal did. Thankfully, the layer of filth helped the paint come off!
I will have to give Peter Wall a try. I don't think I could afford a replacement reproducer now, with all the other parts I need.

I have run into another problem with the machine. The internal horn isn't screwed into the cabinet like it should be, at the tonearm base. The holes in the iron horn don't line up with the holes in the board. It looks like the horn needs to move further forward, but it can't. I'm not sure how to photograph the problem, but does anyone have suggestions?

The most honest suggestion would be to use this machine for parts. Mind you there doesn't seem to be many good parts left to salvage. Given the long list of problems against it and the cost factor in order to restore.....just makes it not worth messing with in my opinion.Then on top of it all it's a Canadian model. This makes it even less desirable to the American version. Give all that and the fact a near mint model is just not worth much.
Sometimes what seems like a good deal is just not.
Again, that's just how I see it.

[Jerry B.]

A project machine to one collector may be a parts machine to another. Dollar wise it may be good advice to part it out but if it pleases you to bring a machine back from the brink I say go for it. You only have to answer to the guy in the mirror and maybe your wife. Jerry Blais

[mikejk]

Nate,

Post a pic of the sound box if you can. I ask because one of mine is a cracked, unattractive thing, however by replacing the ball bearings and sealing the cracks it is one of the best sounding Orthos that I have. If it isn't cracked and warped out of shape it could be salvaged.

Mike

[Curt A]

"The motor runs okay, but is missing two governor springs, and the pot metal parts are broken."

Governor springs are no problem, but what pot metal parts are broken? You only mention the reproducer and if that is the case, it can probably be repaired.

As far as the cabinet goes... you are not dealing with a finish that is only dirty or easily restorable, since there appear to be bare areas. Looking at the top and side pics, the cabinet is in serious need of refinishing. Howards Restore A Finish will not improve this very much. You could try sudsy ammonia, or regular ammonia if you can't find the sudsy type. The ammonia will melt the original finish that is left and by spreading it around the cabinet, you might be able to even it out and keep the color the same. Use steel wool with the ammmonia and make sure you do the entire cabinet to make it match.

Once you have the finish evened out and the rings removed from the top, wipe it down with a clean cloth and let it dry. Go back over it with Tung oil on a piece of steel wool or amber shellac applied with a rag, let it dry and use a dry piece of steel wool - 0000 - to smooth the finish, then do that over again for several coats. When you get it looking about right, use a coat of MinWax or other paste furniture wax to topcoat it and buff it when dry. You won't end up with a valuable show piece, but you will have a nice looking presentable piece that you will be proud of and won't have to invest a fortune to make it usable...

[gramophone78]

Nate, I hope you didn't find my post too cold. As a long time collector I have learned that there is a tipping point when restoring a machine. This tipping point is decided on rarity, desirability and level of work that you have to place your good money into.
If you can repair and restore all or most with just the cost of your time....well, that's a "project" as Jerry stated.

If however most or all the work,parts,etc.... need to be bought from expensive sources....a tipping point may be reached. If you have deep pockets...you may not care.

Since all of us long time collectors know this machine holds little value or even potential growth. None of us would bother or at least I wouldn't again given all the the issues you have already mentioned.

These days, a few dollars more and you can get a nice Vic. 16 (or better)on CL that requires little to nothing.
As I stated....buying something just because it was "cheap" may not always be the best buy.

I did however forget to mention (although not in your case) there is an issue that will trump everything I fore mentioned. If a machine is a family heirloom or has a very special spot within your family. Then, in my opinion.... I would restore a machine to past on to future generations in the family.
Here is a guy selling a parts machine starting at $5 and up for parts....
http://abbotsford.craigslist.ca/atq/4563913670.html

[NateO]

Thanks for all the comments. I didn't realize how much less Canadian models are worth. However, I still would rather save it than part it out. It makes no sense, but I do really like the machine. I have always wanted a walnut Victrola, and as rough as it is, I love the look of this machine. I was also looking for a small Orthophonic, and this will fit nicely in the little space I have left. I actually like the fact that it is a Canadian machine. It makes it a little "different" from the regular US model in my eyes, though I am sure Canadian machines are fairly common here near Buffalo, NY. The machine also offers me a great learning experience. My two other Victrolas were in decent shape, and only required minor work. This one gives me a nice opportunity to repair a motor and attempt some cabinet work, without fear of damaging something. These reasons probably don't justify the cost (especially on a college student budget!), but I still want to try and save it. Gramophone78, your response wasn't cold at all. I really appreciated it, as it really made me think about what I wanted to do. I joined the hobby for my enjoyment, with no intention of making money. I actually have enjoyed working on this machine, so that to me is worth the cost.

CurtA, Thank you for the tips on working with the lid. How bad would the machine look if I only redid the lid? The sides of the machine look better in person than in the pictures here, so I would prefer to save the original finish, if possible. My reference to pot metal was the tonearm bracket, which is a total loss. The previous owner attempted to repair it, but it wasn't done well, and the tonearm wouldn't move freely.

I attached two pictures of the reproducer. Does it look salvageable? I have no experience with Orthophonics, but if it looks possible, I will send it out to Peter Wall.

Thank you again for all the help,
Nathan

[OrthoSean]

Hi Nate,

I've had ortho reproducers in far worse shape than that one done that wound up sounding great, so my guess is yes!

Kudos for wanting to save this nice little machine. I've revived many, many in that kind of condition, often with time and patience you can get the needed parts for little if you can afford to wait.

I have a Brunswick Saville (Seville?) sitting in my shop that's all there but the cabinet is, well, needy. I couldn't bring myself to part the thing out and I'm glad I didn't. It's going to be heading to it's new home this week as it sits, complete with broken legs and warped doors - the guy I am giving this too revived another basket case machine I gave him and gets great enjoyment from it. After he gets this Brunswick done, I have a Grafonola floor model for him next. Sure beats parting them out when somebody else will get some experience and enjoyment from it in the end.

Sean