Okeh Vertical Dilemma

[Lucius1958]

So: I recently purchased an adapter for my C-250, for playing laterals and non-Edison verticals.

I tried it out on my sole Okeh vertical, using a steel needle, as has been suggested elsewhere (suffice it to say, I had set it correctly for a vertical disc): very shortly, I noticed this damage on the disc:

What have I done wrong? Should I have used a sapphire?

Bill

[OrthoSean]

I don't think you did anything wrong. I've noticed that these and others like Aeolian-Vocalion, Lyric and Operaphone verticals that were designed for steel needles just don't hold up well played like this. Did they when they were new? I've wondered, they hardly ever show up in decent condition, which leads me to believe they just didn't wear well. I recently bought a stack of what certainly appear to be new Operaphones, mirror shiny. Played electrically they sound phenomenal. I took the least interesting one, a quartet singing a religious tune, and played it on my XVI using my vertical rebuilt Pathé adapter (using a new steel needle). It played fine, but while holding my trusty high powered flashlight at an angle to the grooves while it played, I could see very, very slight gray behind as it played. I just don't play these electrically for that reason. I should try using one of my DD adapters as you did and see if the results are any different, but I wouldn't have high hopes. My Sterling DD adapter handles Pathés, Rex and other sapphire verticals just fine, though.

Sean

[Victrolacollector]

I have always wondered about those such as Okeh verticles. Were they supposed to be played with a steel needle or with a Pathé stylus?

[VintageTechnologies]

The vertical-cut Okeh and vertical-cut Rex records have the same groove dimensions as the vertical-cut Pathé records and should always be played with a sapphire ball stylus. Steel needles will damage them, as repeated playings will eventually prove. I specialize in collecting vertical-cut records and I am 100% certain about those brands and their requirements.

A number of small record companies published vertical-cut records between 1916-1920 before switching to conventional lateral-cut records or going out of business. Some of those makes, such as Aeolian-Vocalion, were indeed made to be played with steel needles, and others were probably intended to be played with the diamond stylus of a Brunswick Ultona 3-way reproducer. Those records were characterized by a finer thread pitch than a Pathé record. They may have the same 150 TPI pitch as a Diamond Disk, but should not be played on the Edison. The Pathé stylus will not track them very well if at all, without skipping and distortion. After a while you learn to visually distinguish between sapphire and steel needle records, just as you do between 2 and 4 minute cylinders.

All in all, the vertical-cut records requiring steel needles were a bad idea - they wore quickly, had a thin poor sound and were scratchy. The sapphire records generally play much better.

[OrthoSean]

Every vertical Okeh I've seen and have (admittedly not many) have been steel needle types and not sapphire-cut types. It's very easy to tell by looking at them. Somewhere in my sleeves upstairs I have a vertical Okeh sleeve which mentions steel needle and cautions against using sapphires. Is it possible they had both types of vertical grooves but at different times? I'd certainly like to see a "sapphire cut" Okeh.

Sean

[edisonplayer]

The problem with the vertical cut discs that used a steel needle was lack of compliance.edisonplayer

[VintageTechnologies]

Is it possible they had both types of vertical grooves but at different times? I'd certainly like to see a "sapphire cut" Okeh.

I suppose it is possible, but I have never seen a needle-type vertical Okeh record. What are the catalog numbers of yours? All of mine are the sapphire cut. They have a blue label with an Indian head set within the first letter. When Okeh switched to laterals, they used the same design with "Lateral" printed across the label.

It would be interesting for all of us to post pictures of the various early Okeh labels and sleeves to reduce confusion.

I found a website that shows a few label variations - do any of them match yours?

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/paddleste ... 00_series/

[alang]

There are also a few Okeh labels listed in the old label guide on this forum http://talkingmachine.info/labels/okeh/

Andreas

[estott]

I've found that my Okeh verticals play decently with a sapphire ball, but my Aeolian verticals will only play with a steel needle.

Your Mileage May Vary

[OrthoSean]

I have a whole whopping two that I could locate, low 5000 series numbers. The grooves certainly look like narrow steel needle type grooves. Both also have the Indian labels just like the first laterals, but they aren't, just tested them electrically. Finding my sleeve would take hours of searching boxes of empty company sleeves upstairs in a 90+ degree attic, so that's not happening

I did look in ARLIE by chance and there is a mention as follows: "...initially produced as a ten inch vertical cut disc (playable with either sapphire or steel stylus, according to early sleeves and advertising) bearing dark blue labels with an Indian head trademark." Interesting to see also that Okeh started out in Rex's recording studios but never reissued any of Rex's material. So, I guess they could be played with both or so Okeh claimed. I never tried playing either of mine on a machine, as I've said above, with odd stuff like this and Gennett, Paramounts, Phono-Cut and a few vertical Sonoras I also have, I just don't risk it, even if the company claimed you could.

Sean