A question about cylinder blanks for recording

[Phototone]

I was just wondering, the original master wax recordings intended for plating and mold making, would they have been a softer wax than the blanks sold for home use, and playback after recording? It would make sense, that the blank for a studio master would be softer to get a louder more modulated recording, without worry about wear from playback.

[VintageTechnologies]

I was just wondering, the original master wax recordings intended for plating and mold making, would they have been a softer wax than the blanks sold for home use, and playback after recording? It would make sense, that the blank for a studio master would be softer to get a louder more modulated recording, without worry about wear from playback.

I have always assumed that was the case. My homemade recordings were never as loud as the Gold Molded recordings.

[tinovanderzwan]

I was just wondering, the original master wax recordings intended for plating and mold making, would they have been a softer wax than the blanks sold for home use, and playback after recording? It would make sense, that the blank for a studio master would be softer to get a louder more modulated recording, without worry about wear from playback.

I have always assumed that was the case. My homemade recordings were never as loud as the Gold Molded recordings.

on the edison patents site of edison.rutgers.edu/patents.htm we can read that edison used pure pears soap for the mould masters
this would make sense it would be quite a bit softer than normal commercial blank wax(wich bassicaly is also a soap) it would make loud recordings and after electroplating the mould around it it could be extracted by flushing it out with hot water wich would leave no marks on the inside of the mould

the use of pears soap appears many times in the edison patents (water soluble soap)

[Phototone]

That is exactly what I suspected, and the reason the commercial recordings have a greater volume depth and quiet surface from modern recordings made on currently available blanks, which were intended for playback, being harder.

[edisonphonoworks]

Edison experimented with many things for recording, including
Pears' Soap, and Chocolate to make masters . But most were a light cream colored cylinder made of standard brown wax formula. They are louder and clearer because of the recorder, you can make painfully loud recordings on standard brown wax with a studio recorder, being one of the few owners of an original one that works. If you have one that works, I would like to see and hear it. Peter Dilg has a replica studio recording head as well mounted on an original 1890s lathe. Later on a lead soap was used for Diamond Disc and Amberol masters. I have made some very quiet formulas, with lead soaps, but they are not safe to make. the sub masters for making working molds (master, mother working) look like Gold Moulded records but they are cream, or yellow color, but are made of standard Gold Moulded formula without coloring. I have done experimental recordings with ivory, Dove and Pears soap with heating in alcohol and water, it makes a mass that is stuffed in the mold, and then it has to sit for months to dry after moulded. I never got very good results with it, the depth of the cut varied, and you could not play it, even with a pickup. Can you imagine a studio recorder holding up on that. Anyhow last I tried it with an early 1890s recorder,about 14 years ago, I guess it is time to make another go at it. Ill post my findings. On youtube.

[Phototone]

Well, the patents don't lie. Edison DID patent a soft "Pears Soap" blank to be used for cutting masters from which to plate for molds. The weight of the cutter-head can be controlled with counterweights.

[edisonphonoworks]

I am just saying I have tried master cylinders of standard household soaps, of Ivory, Pears and Dial. And it did not work, for me, maybe you will have better luck with it. I have known about this patent for over 15 years. When I tried recording on it, It did not record high frequencies, you did not even see them on they blank. As a recordist you can look at a blank and tell the tone quality and roughly the response it has, even before it is played. As I said I will try this again sometime soon, and post my results on youtube. My studio recorder if you want can bury the whole 40 thousandths wide recording stylus into a standard metallic soap blank, if you adjust the depth down (basically it will shave the surface with a big curly shaving with no grooves, and this is something you DO NOT want to do . The advance ball will make a valley on its own without the cutter on a soft composition cylinder. I boiled the soap to a viscous mass in water and ethyl alcohol and moulded the blanks, I made 3 of them. You do the same, make a blank of soap and record and play it and see what it does for you. Maybe the aluminum recorders will work on these soap blanks. My recorder was made between 1903 and the 20s in the period of the patent of the soap cylinders. What is odd is Pear's soap is a glycerin soap and transparent I have never seen a master like this in ones I have examined. Donley's Wild West town had some that I examined and they were just very high quality brown wax material. You will see if you go to Bills Flicker below (type in laboratory complex Edison recording Phonograph) You will notice white cylinders in cans, These are similar in composition to a regular brown wax record, if they were the lead soap they would be very reddish orange in color, and if they were pears's soap they would be transparent orange where you could see through them.


Go to Flicker and search for
1910 Edison recording phonograph. look for a photo with a silver horn, and microscope, with cylinders in cans. here is a video of a White Record company master cylinder.

http://youtu.be/XzKBV0jjmEY This is a British White Record company master cylinder record. This is what Edison Gold Moulded and Blue Amberol masters also look like, and I have made these too.

[edisonphonoworks]

http://youtu.be/G0Hb28ePqpo If you listen to this video you not hear much surface noise at all the blank is very very quiet. It is more of what I send to customers. Most of my other videos are on rejected blanks, I do not use the good ones, as you guys do not allow me to use good blanks for my personal use, just junk ones.

[Phototone]

I think there still is a ton of information and data regarding early recording techniques that is lost, it would seem.

[edisonphonoworks]

I agree, it takes quite a bit of skill to make a good recording and recording blank. My process of making the wax is very complicated, and it has taken years to learn. There IS much lost in the art of acoustic recording, but newer recordist still have made remarkable live recordings, Peter Dilg and others. My studio recorder, for instance may not be exactly as it originally set up, but it does record much better than a home recorder. I was talking to Chuck Richards on the phone last night, and I had it on speaker phone, and was not even thinking, and demonstrating the studio recorder to him, and when I played it back it also recorded his end of the conversation from the phone, and every word was clearly recorded and I did not even have it close to the recording horn. There is still hundreds of diaphragm experiments to do, but right now I like the sound, and so really going to leave it like it is, it has a very close to the authentic sound of an original Edison Gold Moulded record, but the more clear ones.