G&T Senior Monarch - original rear mount and tone-arm?

[SeniorMonarch]

Hello,

and sorry for my rather uninspired username. Of course it has to do with the phonograph I own. It is a G&T mahogany Senior Monarch ("Ionic") which was built between 1907 and 1911; I purchased it three years ago from a phonograph collector and dealer in the Netherlands (I'm from Germany, so please be indulgent with my English).

I have got some questions about the machine, especially about the rear mount (back-bracket) and the tone-arm. As you can see in the pictures, there is no nickel plating (left) on those parts. The seller told me that it has probably disappeared due to exaggerated polishing. Is that possible, or are these parts (modern) replacements?
There are especially two things that make me believe in the "replacement-theory" (I'd like to be proven wrong, though ). First, the additional holes at the backside of the case where the rear mount is attached. It seems to me that there was another rear mount attached once. Second, the small circle with the impressive number of screw holes next to the rear mount. Can you guess what was once attached there?

I would be happy to hear what you think of it. If you'd like to have more pictures, please tell me.

Greetings,

Alexander

[Curt A]

"As you can see in the pictures, there is no nickel plating (left) on those parts. The seller told me that it has probably disappeared due to exaggerated polishing. Is that possible, or are these parts (modern) replacements?"

I am no expert on British machines, however the parts you mention are almost exact duplicates of Victor parts - if not exact duplicates. By duplicates, I don't mean modern replacements - they just appear to be made the same. The Exhibition reproducer is exactly the same as American Victor machines.

Your machine has original looking parts and they appear to have been buffed heavily in the past, which will remove the nickle plating. The extra holes are puzzling, but the wear to the finish looks like that back bracket has been in place for many years. The lower holes appear to be drilled through the wood and the screws then thread into the metal plate behind, just like American Victor machines. The round circle and holes does not look like it would be for anything familiar...

[Curt A]

Is that a Parlophone record in the picture? If so, what is the title?

[ambrola]

[quote="Curt A"]Is that a Parlophone record in the picture? If so, what is the tit
It almost looks like it had something on the rear of it?

[Phonofreak]

Looking at the back of the machine, the extra holes look like what is seen on the earlier American machines such as the Victor R, E, M, and MS. Those holes were for the proper positioning of the back bracket and arm for either the Exhibition or Concert reproducer. The circular spot and holes in the back could be either a dealer plate or the Recording Angel(I'm using an educated guess on this one)
Harvey Kravitz

[SeniorMonarch]

Thanks for your replies!

@Curt: Yes, as far as I know, HMV (G&T respectively) used Victor parts (motors, tone arms, horns, elbows, ...) as well - but not the cases, at least in later years. And you're right, the wear to the finish indicates that the back bracket has not been replaced recently, I haven't thought about that.
The record is a Parlophone indeed, with "An den Frühling" ("To the Spring") by Edvard Grieg and "Chanson triste" by Pyotr I. Tchaikovsky, both played by "Marek Weber mit seiner Künstlerkapelle" ("Marek Weber with his band of artists"). It's the record that permanently covers my turntable because of its beautiful label:

@Harvey: You mean the extra holes above those the back bracket is fitted in, right? (It's the two lower holes that are in use with my back bracket, just the way Curt said.) I don't quite understand what you mean with "back bracket and arm for either the Exhibition or Concert reproducer". Hasn't the Victor R had a front mount tone arm?
Do you mean the recording angel in the picture below? The HMV book by Brian Oakley says that it was "inlaid into the wood" and "has sometimes fallen off" (the picture is from that book, too), but that it was in use around 1904, which would be too early for my machine, I guess. But it's worth considering. The dealer stamp is at the front side of the case (a nice one, I think):

recangel.jpg (10.71 KiB) Viewed 4222 times

So all in all you seem to consider the parts to be original, right? I'm happy to hear that, because the first phonograph I bought in 1998 was a typical crap-o-phone (unfortunately I didn't know then).

[Steve]

From the photos I would agree with others that the parts do appear to be genuine BUT why are there two sets of holes for mounting that back-bracket? When I have to answer "awkward" questions like that I usually conclude it's because a machine has been messed about with and doesn't have the correct original parts. That bracket and arm certainly appear to be original stock but maybe not for this machine? Does the needle point line up with the spindle? It appears that the bracket (or a different bracket) was bolted through at a lower or higher level than the current example - it's not clear which set of holes you are currently using? Normally you wouldn't expect to find two sets of holes. I wonder what that other circle of holes was for? Was this a travelling arm machine at one time?

[Starkton]

As you can see in the pictures, there is no nickel plating (left) on those parts. The seller told me that it has probably disappeared due to exaggerated polishing.

Certainly not. Obviously most nickel plated parts on this machine were heavily corroded because of poor storage and stripped or "refurbished" before the sale. I hope you didn't pay too much.

The holes for the back bracket appear to be genuine, but not the round impression with filled holes to the right of it.


Hallo Alexander,

bitte stelle Dein Grammophon auch im deutschen Forum vor. Wir können dann darüber diskutieren: http://grammophon-platten.de/news.php

Viele Grüße
Stephan

[SeniorMonarch]

That bracket and arm certainly appear to be original stock but maybe not for this machine?

That is what I thought, too - a machine having been "maltreated" a long time ago and then restored. And in fact, that wouldn't bother me much, as long as the machine has been rebuilt with parts that were originally used with a machine of this type. Although there are a number of machines of that particular type to be found at auctions and with collectors (about 1900 have been sold between 1907 and 1911; this model has, by the way, never been equipped with a travelling arm) that are in much better condition, mine still seems collectable to me.

Is it this what you mean by "Does the needle point line up with the spindle?"? It doesn't seem to line up exactly, though:

needlespindle.jpg (19.77 KiB) Viewed 4133 times

Hallo Alexander,

bitte stelle Dein Grammophon auch im deutschen Forum vor. Wir können dann darüber diskutieren: http://grammophon-platten.de/news.php

Viele Grüße
Stephan

Hallo Stephan,

das werde ich sehr gerne tun, aber nicht vor morgen Abend oder übermorgen, es steht bei mir leider noch einiges an Arbeit an!

Liebe Grüße,

Alexander

[alang]

From the photos I would agree with others that the parts do appear to be genuine BUT why are there two sets of holes for mounting that back-bracket?

Like Harvey said earlier, many early Victor rear mount machines had two sets of holes hidden behind the back bracket from factory. Customers had the option to choose between the Concert and Exhibition reproducers, which were of different size. The different holes were used to adjust the height of the back bracket, so the tonearm would still ride horizontally. So two sets of holes do not necessarily mean that the machines has been mucked with. Even though in this case the inner metal plate does not support this idea. It does not look like it could be turned around to support the upper set of holes. With everything else looking quite nice and unmolested it is not clear to me what the other holes were for? Maybe a mistake by drunk factory worker? As long as the back bracket was installed nobody would ever have noticed it. Still a beautiful machine that I would love to have in my living room.

Thanks for sharing
Andreas