Differences Between Edison And Columbia 10" Conical Horns

[Phonofreak]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I want to know the differences between an Edison and Columbia 10" conical horn. Were they made by the same manufacture, different manufactures, or in house? I know when I see reproductions of these horns for sale, it us usually stated for Columbia or Edison. Any info on these differences(if any) will be greatly appreciated.
Harvey Kravitz

[phonogfp]

This questions isn't as simple to answer as I'd wish...

Neither Edison nor American Graphophone manufactured horns "in house" until Edison began manufacture of Amberolas.

That was the easy part.

Edison outsourced its horns from the Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company. Prior to Edison blacklisting Hawthorne & Sheble (late 1899), Edison may well have been using H&S horns, meaning the earliest Gems may have been supplied with H&S 10" conical horns.

Columbia obtained its horns from Hawthorne & Sheble.

To the best of my knowledge at this time, I believe that Edison's 10" cone horns (with the possible exception of those supplied with the earliest Gems) had a shaped small end (seen on the left in the photo below). I've never found an early Gem in the wild (meaning out of a house or from a generalized antique dealer who wasn't switching parts around) that didn't have the shaped small end. If a Gem has been found in the wild with its original horn equipment featuring a soldered tubular small end, the horn may be a Hawthorne & Sheble or a Standard Metal Manufacturing product. I don't know how one might tell them apart. To make matters even more confusing, it's possible that early Tea Tray 10" conical horns used soldered tubular ends as well.

I believe Columbia's 10" cone horns were constructed exclusively with soldered tubes at the small ends. Based upon the horn equipment supplied with the rest of the Columbia line (as well as the close ties between the management of the two firms), I'm far more confident in stating that Columbia's 10" conical horns were supplied by Hawthorne & Sheble. I've never found an Eagle or a Q in the wild whose original 10" conical horn equipment varied from a soldered tubular small end.

So... My generalized rule of thumb is that Eagles and Qs should always have soldered tubular small ends on their 10" conical horns (as seen to the right below). Edison Gems after 1900 should probably have shaped small ends on their 10" conical horns; the possible exceptions being the earliest examples. And it's still unknown (by me anyway) whether Standard was supplying 10" conical horns to either Edison or Columbia. If so, they would have had soldered tubular small ends.

I'm sorry I can't deliver a more brief answer, but I'd rather be accurate than concise.

George P.

[Jerry B.]

Great topic! Thanks George for your reply. I always had believed only the reproduction cone horns had soldered small ends. I learned something today. Jerry Blais

[Phonofreak]

George, Thanks for the informative answer. I noticed in the picture that the Columbia horn was taller and thinner than the Edison horn. I also saw that the gold stripe on the Columbia horn is lower than the Edison horn. Thanks again for the great info. I really learned something here.
Harvey Kravitz

[whitedogfive]

I have a 1902 Gem with its original horn and key. The conical horn has the shaped end with the gold stripe higher on the horn than the Columbia horn.

[Bruce]

Great topic. Thank you for the well informed answer George.

Brucde

[gemering]

I found a Gem Model B in the wild about two years ago.
I was happy to see that the ten inch conical horn with shaped end was stamped near the bell end with "PAT Aug 22 '05."
I have not seen many ten inch horns with a PAT stamp.
Is this uncommon?

Gene

[phonogfp]

I found a Gem Model B in the wild about two years ago.
I was happy to see that the ten inch conical horn with shaped end was stamped near the bell end with "PAT Aug 22 '05."
I have not seen many ten inch horns with a PAT stamp.
Is this uncommon?

Gene

If you think about it, the patent stamp would be found only on those 10" horns manufactured after August 1905 until Oct. 1907 when the Gem was supplied with a larger horn - - about 2 years' production. The Gem had been on the market for over 6 years by the time this Tea Tray patent stamp made its appearance, so it stands to reason that the unstamped horns turn up more often than the stamped ones.

Thanks for all the kind remarks, gentlemen. As you know, I love this stuff, and I'm happy to help others when I can. Barbie was wondering why I came to bed so late last night...

George P.

[TinfoilPhono]

My experience matches George's, regarding finding these 'in the wild'. I have seen considerable variation in the positioning of the stripe. I don't think that detail was standardized by the manufacturers, it was probably up to the worker who painted the stripe on any given day.

[Pathe Logical]

Hi George,

I know the topic of this post is 10 inch cone horns, but I was curious about a statement made in your 10/25/2014 post. "Edison outsourced its horns from the Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company." Does this statement pertain only to outsourcing 10 inch cone horns, or also later to other types and sizes of external horns as well? What was the connection of the Hill Brass Company to Edison? It looks like Hill at least supplied some bells to Edison around 2/16/1904 (refer to attached photo).

Thanks for you insights,
Bob