Brunswick 3567 (Johnny Dodds) - Questions on Take Numbers

[Cody K]

I've been trying to learn more information regarding the takes used for pressings of Brunswick record No. 3567, Wild Man Blues/Melancholy, by Johnny Dodds' Black Bottom Stompers. All I've been able to find using any search engine have been links pointing to online sales of the record. An E+ copy sold on eBay a couple of weeks ago at a high price; that one was listed as take 25 for Wild Man, and take 27 for Melancholy. Another copy was sold by Mark Berresford (of VJM) in 2013 for considerably less, though he listed Wild Man as also take 25 and Melancholy as take 28, noting that 28 was "rare".

I know that Louis Armstrong is generally credited in the line-up for this disc, but is he perhaps missing from some of the takes? And isn't it rather unusual for there to have been so many takes for these sides?

If anyone has the information that could clarify this, or can point me toward a source of that information online, I'd appreciate it very much. Thanks!

[Roaring20s]

I just did some searching and this has been the most I found.
It does not answer the questions, but it does add to the thread.
http://dippermouth.blogspot.com/2012/09 ... blues.html

My copy of this is Wild Man Blues take 25 over Melancholy take 28

James.

[Cody K]

Thanks for that, James. It's some good background and does add to the thread. I wish the author had labeled which clip is which take. I also have 25/28. I'll have to compare it to the clips. I'm guessing now that take 27 must in fact be the rare issue? In any case, both versions in the clips sound great to me, and Armstrong is unmistakably present on both.

Sneaky Louie! There's a story that when the OKeh execs recognized his voice on a competing label, they asked him who was singing, and he said "I don't know, but I won't do it again!".

Cody

[Roaring20s]

Hear the whole (identified) versions...
http://www.redhotjazz.com/jdbbs.html

On the above page, you will see the two listed and the take numbers are small.

Melancholy
(Bloom / Melrose), 4-22-1927, Chicago, Illinois, Brunswick, 3567-B, E-22727

Melancholy
(Bloom / Melrose), 4-22-1927, Chicago, Illinois, Brunswick, 3567-B, E-22728

From this, I am guessing the they did not have 28 takes. It may be an Entry number and just 2 takes were entered.
Note, also on this page, Wild Man Blues has the same first three numbers followed by 25 and 26.

James.

[welshfield]

Are you SURE about there being these many (27/28) takes ??? Seems as if that would tax the patience of the recording engineer and staff. These are professional musicians and it seems to me that they would get it right after two or three takes at most. How in the world would it take them so many times playing though to get it right? I wonder whether you folks are misinterpreting these matrix numbers.
John

[Cody K]

Well, no. As James suggested just above, it seems unlikely. It was one of the questions I had about it originally; it seems very odd. None of my other Brunswicks seem to have more than a 2 as an indication of the take number.

James, thanks for the links, but those are RealPlayer docs? I'll have to dig out the old spring-driven laptop to play them!

[Henry]

Agree that 28 takes is highly unlikely. With all respect to the performers, who knew exactly what they were doing, this is not difficult music in the context of the jazz repertory. Both tunes use basic changes (chord progressions) that every jazz player masters early on. Two or, at most, three takes would have been plenty sufficient.

BTW, the documentation accompanying the Columbia Legacy CD re-release ("Louis Armstrong: The Complete Hot Five and Hot Seven Recordings," ©2000) lists two takes for "Wild Man Blues," 4/22/1927, 22725 ["Common Take"] and 22726 ["Rare Take"], and two takes for "Melancholy," 4/22/1927, 22727 ["Common Take"] and 22728 ["Rare Take"]. Those are the Brunswick 3567 releases (which takes not specified, but they differ as to length: "Wild Man Blues" at 3:01 and 3:06, and "Melancholy" at 3:05 and 3:21 [!], respectively. In addition, it also lists the OKeh recordings, which were different from the Brunswicks: "Wild Man Blues" 5/7/1927, OKeh 8474, W 80848-C at 3:09, and "Melancholy" 5/11/1927, OKeh 8496, W 80862-A at 3:00. The Columbia Legacy CD release contains all of the above versions, on disk 3.

So there were, at least, these three recordings of each tune. You could probably establish which is which by carefully timing and comparing the playbacks. Another clue separating the OKehs from the Brunswicks is that the pianist on the latter is the incomparable Earl Hines, whereas the OKehs have Lil Armstrong, whose pedestrian piano style is markedly different from the forward-looking, "modern" style of Hines.

The only versions included on the previous Columbia CD release (©1988) of the Hot Fives/Sevens are the OKehs. I own that CD (CK 44253), but unfortunately I have only the documentation booklet for the later CD re-issues (©2000). But I do own Brunswick 80059A/B, which is a 78 re-issue of Brunswick 3567. On that record, "Wild Man Blues" dead wax shows E22725C and "Melancholy" E6441WC (apparent discrepancy here?!).

Are you confused yet? (I know I am!)

Finally, "Wild Man Blues" is not in 12-bar blues form, but is one of the song forms using 8+8 measure phrase components, but that's a topic for another thread!

HTH.

[Cody K]

Thanks for that, Henry. It corroborates Mark Berresford's note in his sale that take 28 is the rare one. Is there an author's credit for the notes to the Legacy CD?

I'm still bemused by the high take numbers, though. The only numbers in the runout of my copy are the stock numbers 3567A and B and, elsewhere in the dead wax, "25" and "28" where one would ordinarily see a one or a two; but there's a lot I don't know and it's quite possible that this is much less unusual than I seem to think. In any case I like the record very much.

I don't know what accounts for a sale price of nearly five hundred simoleons for this particular copy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Johnny-Dodds-03 ... 7675.l2557

but I'm at long last learning that the best way to understand things that happen on eBay is: "Forget it, Jake, it's eBay." Heh.

[Henry]

Phil Schaap is the author credit for the recordings commentary on the Columbia Legacy re-issue. Here are some references:

Scroll down to the fourth item on this discography for a description of the complete contents of the next item, below:
https://www.louisarmstronghouse.org/lou ... graphy.htm

This is the list of the complete contents of the four CDs discussed in the documentation booklet that I own (minus the four CDs):
http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-compl ... 0000254142

This is one of four CDs previously issued separately by Columbia that contain most, but not all, of the items in the above set; I own all four of those CDs. This CD (vol. 2) contains two (one each) of the OKeh versions of "Wild Man Blues"(OKeh 8474, W 80848-C) and "Melancholy" (OKeh 8496, W 80862-A) with Lil Armstrong, pianist:
http://www.allmusic.com/album/hot-fives ... 0000652385

Apparently, all of the above material is out of print/withdrawn/unavailable except in used condition.

[Viva-Tonal]

Keep in mind that Brunswick still assigned a new matrix number to each take recorded at that time.