Dubbed records with different speeds than the originals

[pughphonos]

I think this has been touched on obliquely via other threads, but I'll create one that centers on it: that is, dubbed records (most notably Edison Blue Amberols) that reproduce the music at a different speed (usually faster) than the original record.

For example, I have both the Diamond Disc version of "Mylona--Hawaiian Waltz" by the Waikiki Hawaiian Orch (DD #50676-R) and its Blue Amberol dub (#3274). Playing both, I use my hand-held tachometer to make sure that the disc machine is operating at 80 RPM--and then I adjust the cylinder player to synchronize with that. In the case of the two records above, I have to bring my cylinder machine down to 149 RPM to match--and Blue Amberols are supposed to run at 160 RPM.

Wow, an 11 RPM difference. That demonstrates how inexact the Edison people were in dubbing the Blue Amberols in terms of matching correct speeds with the discs.

I suppose one could make a study of this to see which periods over the entire life of the dubbed Blue Amberols were better--or worse--in terms of speed synchronization. At present I have 53 DD sides in my possession that are dubbed onto cylinders that I also own--so I guess I will give myself that assignment for someday.

The example cited above involves a recording from July 1917. Maybe that's the worst it ever got--and maybe things tightened up after that? Anecdotes, anyone?

Ralph

[52089]

Keep in mind that the playing time of a standard Diamond Disc approaches 5 full minutes, but the capacity of a Blue Amberol is perhaps 4:15 to 4:30, so speeding up the recording lathe (or perhaps the playback disk) makes some sense.

There was an earlier discussion of Stars and Stripes Forever where the BA, played at 160, is clearly too fast. However, that cylinder (2014) is directly recorded!

I can tell you that I have a 1926 dubbing of After I Say I'm Sorry on BA which is definitely sped up from the Diamond Disc, but not as much as some others. Compare:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8hbEAsqgcE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf33V-hStno[/youtube]

These are different takes, of course, but you get the idea. Clearly this practice went on long after 1917!

[pughphonos]

Keep in mind that the playing time of a standard Diamond Disc approaches 5 full minutes, but the capacity of a Blue Amberol is perhaps 4:15 to 4:30, so speeding up the recording lathe (or perhaps the playback disk) makes some sense.

Well, that certainly explains it! Great examples provided in your You Tube videos. Thanks so much.

I'll have fun seeing if I can come up with an even more pronounced example of a speeded-up dub onto Blue Amberol.

[pughphonos]

I just did some more testing--and here are the "scores" to date:

80061-R, "Silver Threads Among the Gold" on BA 3451; must slow down cylinder to 147 to sync (1915)

50150-L, "Tannhauser March" on BA 2529; must slow down cylinder to 156 RPM to sync (1915)

50246-R, "Valcartier--Canadian March" on BA 2634; must slow down cylinder to 151 RPM to sync (1915)

50449-R, "It's a Long Way to Berlin" on BA 3368; must slow down cylinder to 157 PRM to sync (1917)

50676-R, "Mylona--Hawaiian Waltz" on BA 3274; must slow down cylinder to 149 RPM to sync (1917)

50929-R, "Blue Danube Blues" on BA 4532; must slow down cylinder to 159.5 RPM to sync (1922)

51519-L: "Yearning (Just for You)" on BA 5002; must slow down cylinder to 158 RPM to sync (1925)

+++++++++++++++++++++

Tentative conclusions: the top three titles are very long DDs and it's not surprising that the BAs had to be slowed down to fit the music. Interestingly, 50929-R is also long, but its corresponding BA was able to hold all the music at practically the standard (pre-1915) speed of 160 RPM; it's a jam-packed cylinder with grooves practically end to end. It appears that before 1920 the Edison people routinely slowed down the master cylinders to transfer all the music, whereas after 1920 they had a better ability to calculate grooves needed and ability to fit them. So, the post-1915 dubbed cylinders were getting some attention (along with the Royal Purple series).

Also, perhaps, as they got into the 1920s and records were largely standardized as to speed, it was becoming increasingly passe to expect owners to adjust speeds; and as we know, Edison did away with the speed control knob in his Edisonic models of 1927.

P.S. So, "Silver Threads among the Gold" by Elizabeth Spencer (DD #80061-R; Blue Amberol #3451) currently holds the title for the greatest dial-down required on cylinder machine to sync with the disc (down to 147 RPM; released 1915).