Possible Broken Cotter Pin?

[Goach2]

Hello All,

New member and enthusiast here. I have a question about the possibility of a broken cotter pin.

The motor is a "Motor of Quality" and as it's cranked, the spring winds as it should, but as soon as tension starts to barely build, the first gear that the crank winds spins on it's shaft, and the drum spins back to square one. The gear in question has an obvious slot through the middle, and every now and then I see a little circle that looks to be a sheared off pin inside. Does anyone have any experience with this particular motor, and has possibly seen this before?

Thanks!

[MordEth]

Goach2,

Welcome to The Talking Machine Forum!

While I am not familiar with this particular motor (and hopefully someone will chime in that is), what you describe certainly sounds like it’s missing a pin.

Could you take a photo of the gear that you’re describing to upload to the board? (If so, should you have any questions about how to include such an image in a post, let me know. The ‘Upload attachment’ feature below the message composition field is pretty easy to use.)

We have quite a few members who know far more about motors than I will ever learn (although I’m no stranger to the innards of a few—primarily internal horn Victor—models), so I expect someone will give you a more definitive answer.

— MordEth

[gramophoneshane]

I'm not familiar with the "motor of quality", except I think it might be Canadian??
Anyway, I've come across other brands of motors that use this kind of set-up. I think you'll have to pull the motor apart, remove the gear & then remove to old pin. It should go through both sides, so you can punch it out from the opposite side. If not, your only choice will be to drill it out.
Then it's just a matter of rebuilding the motor & replacing the pin.
I have on occasion used a nail to replace the pin, but only if I've had no other choice. Even though the nail has held up well, I'm not real keen on using ordinary mild steel on something that is put under so much pressure.

[Goach2]

Thanks for the info, I will post some pics asap. Can I take the motor apart without having to open the spring drum? I'm not sure if I'm ready to tangle with a spring yet. On the other hand, it probably could use a good cleaning...

[OrthoFan]

I posted this the other day, but one of the links stopped working, so I deleted it. Thought I'd try again.

"Motor of Quality" is normally stamped on those sold by the Otto Heineman Phonograph Supply Company, Inc.

FROM: http://www.mainspringpress.com/okeh.html --

Early in the twentieth century, Otto Heineman, in partnership with Max Strauss and Heinrich Zunz, purchased Carl Lindström Aktien-Gesellschaft, a small manufacturing plant in Berlin, for the newly formed International Talking Machine Company (makers of Odeon records). Heineman came to the United States in 1914, with his brother Adolph, to study industrial conditions for the rapidly expanding Lindström organization.

Stranded in the U.S. at the outbreak of German hostilities, the Heineman brothers formed an import company at 45 Broadway, New York. In 1915, Otto contracted with the Garford Manufacturing Company of Elyria, Ohio, to produce high-quality phonograph motors to his specifications, and in December 1915 he incorporated his new business at the Otto Heineman Phonograph Supply Company, Inc. (25 West Forty-Fifth Street, New York). Heineman initially sold only motors, a lucrative line at a time when dozens of new phonograph lines were being introduced, and his 1918 trademark application claimed use of the phrase "The Motor of Quality" since September 1915.

In April 1917, Heineman purchased the Meisselbach motor factory at Newark, New Jersey, and in late 1917 he diversified a bit, purchasing the John M. Dean needle factory at Putnam, Connecticut. By 1918, the Heineman company was a major supplier of high-quality phonograph motors, reproducers, needles, and parts, although Heineman himself expressed no interest in building complete phonographs.

I also wanted to pass along this jump which contains an image of an ad for Heineman motors:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LWkoAA ... t&resnum=4

For those interested in off-brand talking machines, there are quite a number of ads in the above publication. You can also download a PDF version from the above site.

[Goach2]

Took some pics, hope they're clear enough.

[MordEth]

Goach2,

Nice avatar image—I can’t say that I was familiar with the Brant-ola. (If you’re interested in having a cut out version of that logo, feel free to send me a private message with the full size photo of it as an attachment or to e-mail it to me...or post it in the logo transparencies thread. )

Back to your question, though—is there a hole or indentation in the gear above your arrow?

It certainly appears that something should go there.

— MordEth

[gramophoneshane]

It would have had a pin to prevent the gear turning on the shaft, otherwise as soon as the spring gets enough tension, the shaft will spin backwards while the gear remains stationary.

You can dismantle the motor without removing the spring from the barrel.
Before dismantling any motor, always make sure the spring is fully unwound- although in this case that's not a problem.
The first time you work on a motor, it's a good idea to take heaps of pictures of the position of all the gears etc for future reference. It's not always easy to remember what gear goes where & which way.
Then once it's apart, clean everything thoroughly in a solvent. I use petrol, but some people feel safer using mineral spirits, commercial degreaser etc.
Then repair the gear, and put it all back together, greasing all gears & oiling all bearings.

It's usually a good idea when you remove the governor (the thing that spins with 3 balls on it), to only move one of the bearings. This ensures the governor goes back in, in the same position.

As for the spring, it's a good idea to remove them from the barrel & thoroughly clean them before replacing & greasing them. If you don't feel confident doing them yourself, you can send them away to be done.
It's usually not a good idea to use the motor with old grease though. If the grease has hardened with age, or hasn't got enough in the barrel, spring breakage will result.
I've got a video on youtube showing how "I" remove springs. Bear in mind your springs are a little larger than the one in the video, and be sure to read the description box as well.
Another alternative to clean the springs is to remove the cover from the barrel, and soak the barrel with the spring in it, in solvent for a couple days to dissolve the old grease. Once clean, let it drain & dry, then add a couple heaped teaspoons of grease to the barrel, reassemble & install to the motor. It's less effective than a proper clean, but at least most of the old grease is removed & it will have fresh grease in it.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=rbPa-VWAzSY

[Goach2]

I can see a definite 'circle' on both sides of the shaft, which I'm assuming is the sheared pin. My questions is; should I be using a particular type of pin for this? I'm assuming a pin is supposed to shear off to save the spring from over-winding or something similar, so I don't want to use something with more shear strength than required. Can anyone tell me if there is a certain pin and a certain type of metal that I should be using?

I'd like to try and remove the spring and do a full cleaning. What types of grease or lube should I use, and on which parts?

Thanks!

[MordEth]

I’ll let Shane tackle this one (as he’s far more knowledgeable about motors than I am), although you may want to take a look at the Edison motor manual that I posted here some time ago...sure, it’s a different manufacturer, but a lot of the principles are the same.

I think that Shane makes doing the spring look far too easy in his video.

— MordEth