Edison Concert A phonograph at Andreas PA auction

[orpington]

There were some nice photographs at this auction. In much better condition than the ones in Fogelsville last year.

The auctioneer is honest and there was no buyers premium. Having said that I really wanted the Concert A and bid $1700 on it and it went for $1800 which would be $1908 after sales tax. It was clean and works but not as nice as the one that sold on eBay recently for $1700. Both had the horns and this one had the support but the one on eBay did not. The one today seemed high. Any ideas on how to price this stuff? I also collect antique firearms and can regularly find good stuff at well below retail prices. At auctions you phonograph folks seem to quickly pay full retail. I only wanted to go to $1500 on this and exceeded my bid and still came home empty handed!

Concert cylinders went for $110 each. An okay price but not great.

Any of you attend this auction today? What did you think?

[ChuckA]

There were some nice photographs at this auction. In much better condition than the ones in Fogelsville last year.

The auctioneer is honest and there was no buyers premium. Having said that I really wanted the Concert A and bid $1700 on it and it went for $1800 which would be $1908 after sales tax. It was clean and works but not as nice as the one that sold on eBay recently for $1700. Both had the horns and this one had the support but the one on eBay did not. The one today seemed high. Any ideas on how to price this stuff? I also collect antique firearms and can regularly find good stuff at well below retail prices. At auctions you phonograph folks seem to quickly pay full retail. I only wanted to go to $1500 on this and exceeded my bid and still came home empty handed!

Concert cylinders went for $110 each. An okay price but not great.

Any of you attend this auction today? What did you think?

It went to a dealer friend of mine so no sales tax, there was no buyers penalty at this auction so that helped bidders. Overall it was a good price for the machine, even though it will need a crank.

Only 5 of the Concert cylinders sold for $110 and they were the best of the lot, the remainder sold for $40-$60

Most small local auctions are usually the worse places to look for a bargain in phonos, almost every machine today sold at the middle retail level. If you remember the auctioneer made it a point to tell everyone in the hall that everything was rare, since when is a Columbia "Q" rare?

The Opera was nice but it needed about $1000 of horn and paint work to make it really nice, at $4800 it was a bit over the top in today's market.

If you want bargains you need to attend one of the Stanton auctions in Michigan, there are usually 900 to 1000 items to pick from and usually many of the same type/model.


It's not the phono collectors that "quickly pay full retail" it's the locals that know only what the auctioneer is telling them.


I bought a few items, paid more than I had planned to but that's what happens at an auction.


Chuck

[orpington]

I had to get to work so I left right after the $110 bid for the cylinders. I expected those were the choice ones. How bad were the others as I would have paid what they went for? How can your dealer friend make money on this in the short term? I want one for my own pleasure and so valuation someday will involve my estate, but still I am VERY concerned with valuation because, despite some young blood in the hobby, it is mostly old timers and the long term trend is down. How can you pay full RETAIL now when wholesale now may exceed RETAIL in another generation?

I will have to check out the Stanton auction. I have gotten tremendous deals at local auctions, except when it comes to cylinder phonographs.

[ChuckA]

I had to get to work so I left right after the $110 bid for the cylinders. I expected those were the choice ones. How bad were the others as I would have paid what they went for? How can your dealer friend make money on this in the short term? I want one for my own pleasure and so valuation someday will involve my estate, but still I am VERY concerned with valuation because, despite some young blood in the hobby, it is mostly old timers and the long term trend is down. How can you pay full RETAIL now when wholesale now may exceed RETAIL in another generation?

I will have to check out the Stanton auction. I have gotten tremendous deals at local auctions, except when it comes to cylinder phonographs.

You don't buy this stuff for an investment, at least I don't. I buy what I like and enjoy it, if when I decide to sell it I can break even I will consider it a win.

Chuck

[cmshapiro]

The $1700 ebay one was actually a live auction that carried a 23% BP. It did look like it was VERY nice but cabinet may have been refinished.

Condition on the machine in question was OK, judging from Auctionzip pics. Did the motor suffer any mods to the cranking shaft to fit that crank? The pin striping on the machine looks to be well worn. Does look like an earlier example with the raised serial number bump.

A nice one with original horn, floor stand and proper Automatic reproducer just went for around $3550 on ebay. Its very nice (I can confirm as its sitting a few feet away from me!).

On a machine like this where 5-8 show up on ebay a year its not exactly common and pricing is going to fluctuate based on who is looking and of course condition.

If it makes you feel better I am somewhat of the "young blood" in the hobby at 31 years old. I was very happy to get the machine I got in excellent condition with all proper original parts for around $3500. Could I have found one for less, sure, but condition was very important to me, and had no problem paying for all original good condition. While I am more of an Edisonia and early electrical collector, I won't be going anywhere! There are a few of us who will keep the market healthy.

A dealer will certainly have room at the price he paid. He will take it to shows with a $3-4K price and will sell it to someone who wants to buy a machine from a dealer they trust versus taking a chance on ebay.

[orpington]

What should I realistically expect to pay for a decent Edison Concert A with horn and stand?

I think $3,000 to $4,000 from a dealer is unrealistic. Few would pay that, unless they are anxious to have one and have not done their homework. In my opinion, today's machine was worth $1,400 to $1,500. I exceeded that, and didn't succeed. $1,800 for this machine was FULL retail...I thought, at an auction such as this, I might get lucky and get it for $1,200.

Stanton's has an auction in a few weeks. I did not see a Concert phonograph, but I could have missed it (non-searchable catalogue). Let's say I did get one from Stanton's. Any idea as to how expensive shipping might be?

I know one could just pay full retail and hope to break even some day. But, this is not the approach I have taken in life. I grew up rather poor, and know how hard it is to earn money, so anything I buy I tend to try and buy at less than retail, sometimes significantly so (I recently purchased a rare firearm at less than a third of its true value...with condition, condition, condition!!! And, this isn't the only time I have done this.). Obviously, sometimes (rarely) I throw my cardinal rules to the wind (like today, I wasn't going to spend a penny over $1,400 for this machine and exceeded that by $300).

Also, one should buy for personal enjoyment, but...if I overpay for this, in a generation, when it is worth even less than now, it is not a fun situation to be in. Think it can't happen? Guess again! Model A Fords are worth a fraction of what they once were worth, and Victorian furniture, 25 or 30 years ago, was worth far more than now. Just today at this auction, a marble top table brought something like $175. A few decades ago, the value of this would have been at least quadruple what it brought today.

[Raphael]

A number of years ago, the renowned collector Aaron Cramer (RIP) were doing some business together, and he gave me a detailed tour of his fabulous collection. I was in awe of not only his collection, but his knowledge and passion for all things Edison. The comment that he made to me at the completion of the tour was "Raphael, everything you have seen here I paid through the nose for". In other words, when he wanted something, he stepped up to the plate and bought it, without thought to investment potential, estate planning, etc.

And as I look around my house, there are several items (mostly clocks) that I acquired 25+ years ago and paid crazy money for. But the pain of writing the check soon faded away and I've enjoyed these pieces immensely for years. And guess what? They are worth a lot, lot more now than what I paid. Not that it matters, they have already been designated as heirlooms that my son will one day inherit.

Phonograph collecting, like any other hobby, should bring pleasure and should not cause stress due to over-concerns about investment potential.

Raphael

[rgordon939]

Raphael, great story and your comment in closing is right on. Collecting is something we do to enjoy not stress over.

Rich Gordon

[ChuckA]

A number of years ago, the renowned collector Aaron Cramer (RIP) were doing some business together, and he gave me a detailed tour of his fabulous collection. I was in awe of not only his collection, but his knowledge and passion for all things Edison. The comment that he made to me at the completion of the tour was "Raphael, everything you have seen here I paid through the nose for". In other words, when he wanted something, he stepped up to the plate and bought it, without thought to investment potential, estate planning, etc.

And as I look around my house, there are several items (mostly clocks) that I acquired 25+ years ago and paid crazy money for. But the pain of writing the check soon faded away and I've enjoyed these pieces immensely for years. And guess what? They are worth a lot, lot more now than what I paid. Not that it matters, they have already been designated as heirlooms that my son will one day inherit.

Phonograph collecting, like any other hobby, should bring pleasure and should not cause stress due to over-concerns about investment potential.

Raphael

Raphael,

You are right on point, I also have many pieces in my collection that I paid retail+ for with no anticipation of making money or even breaking even on. I wanted them for my enjoyment. I knew Aaron also and spent time with him at auctions and if he wanted something it didn't matter much what the cost was going to be, you could be assured he was going to go home with it. I had a couple items he wanted and I didn't want to sell so I threw out a price that was idiotic (I thought) but he didn't bat an eye and bought it.

Orpington,

If all you want to spent is $1500 for a Concert, then just wait, at some point you may find one. If you want to have one now to enjoy, then you pull the trigger when one shows up that you like. No one is going to be able to make that decision for you. Life's too short.....


Chuck

[Bruce]

Both Chuck and Raphael make good points. We all hope for great deals when we buy a new addition for our collection. We hope that no one else notices the item at the auction or the Ebay computers break down after you have made your last bid.

I have come to the realization that if the machine is worth having for your collection it likely is to another collector as well.

Orpington,I sometimes find it hard to work out what is a fair price for a machine I covet. I try to watch the net and get a sense of what it might be worth. But I always remember that time when someone else got a fantastic deal, and subconsciously expect I should as well. I try to reach out to a couple of other collectors and would like to think that if you posted on this forum other collectors would jump in and say it should sell from this to that. Many serious collectors, however, do not want to interfere with the sellers ability to make a great sale and will not jump in to answer your question.

The other factors (which I am sure I do not have to tell you) is all the hidden costs; buyers premiums at auctions, taxes, shipping or driving there, and for us on the other side of the border the 25 % difference between dollars.
So a posted sale price is rarely the actual cost to the buyer.

Best of luck on your hunt for your Concert.

Bruce