HMV 102 serials?

[Columbia78]

Is there a source for dating an HMV 102 with its serial number? My round tag says Model 102, but the paper tag attached shows 102a. Or maybe that isn't referring to the model number, it could be a number pertaining to the printing of the tag itself. I am also puzzled by the 6 digit number stamped into the wood itself just above the circular serial number tag. Does this exist for all or most of the HMV machines?

Thanks for any info.

Jim

[epigramophone]

The earliest 102's had no letter suffix. Later versions ran from 102A to 102H. Letters F and G were not used in the UK, but may have been reserved for export models. I have never seen one.

From 1936 the circular identification plaque was replaced with a rectangular one, and a new numbering system was introduced with a letter B prefix. B on it's own denotes 1936, B/1 is 1937, B/2 is 1938 and so on......

If your machine is a 102A it should have a metal motor board with the motor mounted in a well, enabling it to be removed for repair without disturbing the motor board. It would originally have had a No.16 soundbox, but this may have been replaced in later life by a 5a or 5b.

[Columbia78]

The earliest 102's had no letter suffix. Later versions ran from 102A to 102H. Letters F and G were not used in the UK, but may have been reserved for export models. I have never seen one.

From 1936 the circular identification plaque was replaced with a rectangular one, and a new numbering system was introduced with a letter B prefix. B on it's own denotes 1936, B/1 is 1937, B/2 is 1938 and so on......

If your machine is a 102A it should have a metal motor board with the motor mounted in a well, enabling it to be removed for repair without disturbing the motor board. It would originally have had a No.16 soundbox, but this may have been replaced in later life by a 5a or 5b.

Thanks, since the round identification plaque states Model 102, and the motor board is wooden I suppose it's not a model 102a then.

[epigramophone]

The wooden motor board first appeared in the 102B which ran from about 1933 to 1935.
Another useful dating feature is the needle container. Up to and including the 102B this was metal, but from the 102C onwards it was plastic.

[Columbia78]

The wooden motor board first appeared in the 102B which ran from about 1933 to 1935.
Another useful dating feature is the needle container. Up to and including the 102B this was metal, but from the 102C onwards it was plastic.

The needle container on mine is black and is either really dense plastic or very light painted metal. I suspect it's plastic.

When did HMV begin actually putting the letters on the ID plate? Mine only says Model 102. And as I said before it came with the no. 16 soundbox.

[epigramophone]

Suffix letters first appeared on machines in 1936 with the introduction of the rectangular ID plate.

The No.16 soundbox is believed to have been replaced by the No.5a at some point during the production run of the 102B i.e. between 1933 and 1935.

[Columbia78]

Suffix letters first appeared on machines in 1936 with the introduction of the rectangular ID plate.

The No.16 soundbox is believed to have been replaced by the No.5a at some point during the production run of the 102B i.e. between 1933 and 1935.

This tag came attached to the lid stay when I acquired the machine. It may have no bearing at all regarding the model number, but it does say "102A-Issue 1". The needle container is also shown here, and is probably plastic but very solid plastic if that's what it is. The machine has seen very little use, from all appearances, and I believe all the parts to be original.

[Phono48]

The tag was attached to the handbrake on all 102s that were fitted with the later autobrake, which yours has.

Your needle tray is the earlier metal one. We do have to be careful when attributing dates to machines, using fittings as a reference. HMV were understandably reluctant to have stocks of old fittings hanging around unused when a model changed, and were very prone to using up the old fittings before utilising the new versions. Therefore it is quite common to find, say, a 101 or 102 that could be definitely dated, fitted with a lid catch that was fitted to an earlier machine, and should have been superceded.

[Columbia78]

The tag was attached to the handbrake on all 102s that were fitted with the later autobrake, which yours has.

Your needle tray is the earlier metal one. We do have to be careful when attributing dates to machines, using fittings as a reference. HMV were understandably reluctant to have stocks of old fittings hanging around unused when a model changed, and were very prone to using up the old fittings before utilising the new versions. Therefore it is quite common to find, say, a 101 or 102 that could be definitely dated, fitted with a lid catch that was fitted to an earlier machine, and should have been superceded.

I understand. Logically, since all the clues are there to indicate this machine could be a 102B then, since it has the wooden motor board, probably dating from 1933-4? And how can you tell it's a metal needle tray from this photo? The more I look at it and touch it, tap it, etc. the more I think it's plastic. If it's metal it would be a very light metal painted entirely black without a trace of metal showing through.

Actually, if the tray is plastic that would make it 1935, wouldn't it?

[Phono48]

And how can you tell it's a metal needle tray from this photo? The more I look at it and touch it, tap it, etc. the more I think it's plastic. If it's metal it would be a very light metal painted entirely black without a trace of metal showing through.

I'm going on the slight roughness on the front edge of the tray, which is usually down to slight corrosion of the brass underneath. If you want to be sure, examine the underside of the tray. The plastic ones are much thicker than the metal ones. Also examine the outer casing of the tray, you will probably see bare metal on the inner curve, where the movement of the tray has worn the finish away.