Tinfoil ??

[Gramtastic]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191822126621? ... EBIDX%3AIT
This item 191822126621 is on Ebay in the UK. Any thoughts ? I assume it is home-made ?

[TinfoilPhono]

No way to know how old it is. The design is clearly derived from the 'Brady' model but the proportions are way off the mark. It was evidently made by someone with reasonable machining skills but it could have been made in the late 1870s or last year. (It looks old, but a few weeks buried in the back yard could do that.

With no markings on the machine and no contemporary written documentation it is something of a gamble. It may or may not even work properly.

Unknown machines like that are challenging. The fact that it's a tad crude in execution argues for a home made machine but that alone isn't conclusive. I'm reminded of the tiny Vital tinfoil made of wood and plaster. When one turned up in France many years ago most collectors there assumed it to be a toy made well after the tinfoil era. When a second one turned up it corroborated that at least it wasn't a one-off. Later a third was found (which I ended up with, after passing through several hands). It was around that same time that a copy of the original manual, dated 1879, turned up. That finally authenticated the machines, and dated them quite precisely. A few years later a researcher uncovered the original patent in the French archives, also dated 1879. So the machine, originally downgraded and priced quite low, ultimately became a coveted treasure. A fourth example turned up a few years ago, in rough condition, and sold for much more than any of the previous 3.

Who knows if something similar might happen with the eBay machine?

That said, I will not be bidding myself.

EDIT: for the record, here are a few pictures from the listing.

[Andersun]

The spring steel clip that holds the reproducer on looks very modern and the back side of the base looks like it was cut with a hack saw.

[Gramtastic]

Looking more closely at it, it seems the base could very well be made from the top of an old cast iron fireplace, hence the rough back which was against the wall. Even the two supporting brackets seem to line up with where the holes would be in a mantel piece top...... But again, was this made a hundred years ago or last week ?

[Phototone]

Looking more closely at it, it seems the base could very well be made from the top of an old cast iron fireplace, hence the rough back which was against the wall. Even the two supporting brackets seem to line up with where the holes would be in a mantel piece top...... But again, was this made a hundred years ago or last week ?

Interesting observation, however this doesn't mean it is "new". It could have still been made during the tinfoil era by an enthusiastic amateur that was good at salvaging part.

[catfishjohn]

Gramtastic, you are correct. The base was made from a fireplace mantle and as you mentioned the back portion is not beveled so it would fit flush against a wall.

I'm not a bidder on this item, but did find it interesting enough to ask the seller if there were any markings and he was kind enough to send me several pictures of the underside of the tinfoil phonograph base (show below). After a little research I was able to decipher the diamond symbol on the back of the base. It's called a kite mark and predates the modern patent system in England. It was standardized and each letter depending on its placement corresponds to the type of material it was made of as well as the month, date an year it was registered. If I deciphered the symbol correctly the date is April of 1881. This would be the earliest it could have been made although it could have been made later as the kite Mark may may not have changed for a few years.

This item is also marked No. 47 which is in reference to the model of a particular fireplace mantle, the Biclam No 47. As you can see from the pictures below the base of the tinfoil was made from the top part of the mantle. The big question still remains - when was it made!

Lastly I wanted to mention that in my correspondance with the seller he seamed like a genuinely nice guy who is unsure of what he has. He was very willing to answer my questions and was very interested in learning any information that could be gleamed from the facts that surfaced.

[stevel]

It seems to be similar to the Brady phonograph.
Even the first phonograph ever was probably made from bits and pieces that came to hand

Edit - I see the bidding is up to £510 , someone's willing to take a punt on it!

[TinfoilPhono]

For what it's worth, I see several hex nuts used on this machine. Those have existed since the early 19th century but they were not commonly used until after WWI. Square nuts were pretty much the norm in 1800s. It is not conclusive proof that it's not from 1878 but it raises questions.

[catfishjohn]

As I mention in my previous post, if I deciphered the Kite Mark on the bottom of the base correctly the earliest it could have been made is April of 1881. I concur, the hex nuts certainly stand out.

[US PHONO]

if I deciphered the Kite Mark on the bottom of the base correctly the earliest it could have been made is April of 1881. I concur, the hex nuts certainly stand out.

Thanks for the lesson on Kite marks, I never knew what the marks were!

As to date, I would rather think the date of this item would be a date after the house where the fireplace was originally installed was demolished, so say +100 years to your date. In about 1986/7 on a trip to the UK I visited a collector who was also a very fine restorer and engineer (and one of the greatest people I ever met) who lived a few miles north west from where this item is being sold, and remember that he was finishing off a very similar design to this, but on a wood base.