Standard Records et al with large spindle holes? What gives?

[jboger]

Most of us are familiar with the Standard Model A talking machine and how this machine requires records with large spindle holes. I bought a box of records today ay an auction. All the records have large holes that fit the Standard Model A spindle. Most of the records are one-sided disks. I got quite a few Standard Disk Records. These you expect to have the large hole. But I also got several Oxford one-sided disks with large holes and some early one-sided Columbias. Curiously enough one of the Standard Disc Records has its label pasted over a Columbia label. You can see this in one of the following photos where part of the label is torn away. You can see the word "New." I also included a photo of a Columbia with a large hole. I see no evidence that it had another label pasted over it. So, this begs the question: Did Columbia release records under its own label with large holes? What about Oxford? Note the large hole. Note that part of the words "Disc Records" has been removed. Was this an after market alteration? Did the owner of a Standard Model A do this him/herself? Or could this have been a service provided by the early talking machine and record stores? Some of the holes are well cut and fit snugly over the spindle.

[alang]

Those probably have been drilled larger by the owner, who had a Standard Talking Machine and did not want to be limited to the selection of music available on Standard. I have quite a few of these, different labels. You are lucky if the hole was drilled as nicely as the Oxford in your picture. Many crumble along the edge of the larger hole. Most painful is to see Victor 7" or 8" records or other now rarer records mutilated that way. I also have some that have been filled by a previous owner with some kind of black epoxy (?) and then re-drilled with a normal spindle hole.

Andreas

[jboger]

That would make sense. But do note the Standard Disc Record label pasted over the Columbia label. I doubt very much the owner started with a Columbia record of regular size spindle hole, then pasted a Standard Disc Record label on top of the Columbia label, then cut a hole to fit a Standard Model A machine. I suspect the retailer was the Standard Disc Record company, that that company bought Columbia records then pasted its own label on them. That being the case, who cut the hole? Did the record start life with a small or large hole? Maybe Columbia made the record with a large hole, or maybe the Standard Disc Record company enlarged the hole when it slapped its label on the record. But then there's that Columbia with the large hole. I suspect Columbia sold records with large holes under their own label. As for the Oxfords, I think you are right, These large holes were made by the owner.

by the way, I found a shipping envelope with the H. F. Shipley label on it. He seems to have been a major retailer in Frederick, MD.

[Wolfe]

Standard records were pressed by Columbia, so who knows what went on there. Columbia never sold large spindle records under their own label.

[jboger]

Reference please.

[phonogal]

I have a Harmony record with a Harmony label on 1 side and a Standard label on the other side. I think they were pressed at the same factory and someone just goofed up when applying the labels. Probably the same with your Columbia record.

[Wolfe]

Reference please.

You don't need a reference to find out something that apparent. You didn't stumble on to some weird stash of records that only you found - just a bunch of old drilled out records.

[victorIIvictor]

Hello!

jboger Wrote, "I suspect the retailer was the Standard Disc Record company, that that company bought Columbia records then pasted its own label on them. That being the case, who cut the hole? Did the record start life with a small or large hole? Maybe Columbia made the record with a large hole, or maybe the Standard Disc Record company enlarged the hole when it slapped its label on the record."

As Wolfe suggests, it's a little difficult to tell at this remove whether Columbia provided the pressings to Standard with the large hole, or if Standard enlarged the hole of pressings provided them by Columbia with standard-size spindle holes. Since there were so many of these "scheme" record labels, each with a different spindle hole configuration and most of them operating out of the same general area in Chicago, I think it more likely that it was the "scheme" companies that were doing the spindle hole modifications. That way, Columbia could supply pressings (often outdated overstock at that) and whichever "scheme" company received them could modify the pressing to suit its corresponding "scheme" machine (sometimes ineptly, as in phonogal's amusing example).

The following references are merely handy, rather than in printed books, but check out JohnM's excellent summary of the "scheme" companies in this thread

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=1634

… and my post covering the dates of operation of these various "scheme" companies on the second page of this thread

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... d&start=10


What you read in these posts can also be found in the introduction to Tim Brooks' Columbia Master Books and Allan Sutton's American Record Labels and Companies: an Encyclopedia (1891-1943). These references will also confirm Wolfe's statement that "Columbia never sold large spindle records under their own label." It is certainly possible, however, that the Columbia record you picture once had a Standard label pasted over it which has now fallen off.

Best wishes, Mark

[colmike1]

Reference please.

You don't need a reference to find out something that apparent. You didn't stumble on to some weird stash of records that only you found - just a bunch of old drilled out records.

No need to snap at someone asking a simple question. This is a friendly forum. Let's keep it that way please.

[estott]

Columbia provided records to Standard- some were pressed with Standard labels directly at the Columbia plant, and Columbia also pasted Standard labels over Columbia ones. In general the recordings that Columbia produced for these "Scheme" machines were old ones issued years before. They did this with other clients including Sears.

Columbia also built machines for Standard, and also provided records and machines for such scheme machines as Harmony and United.