Low Power

[bangster]

Howdy friends; remember me? The guy that does mostly clocks, and a few phonographs.

I've just got done overhauling an Edison Standard machine. It does everything it's supposed to...except run.

That is, with the mandrel empty, if it's started with a push, it will trundle along. But as soon as I put on a cylinder, it bogs down. Can't handle the extra weight.

If this were a clock, I'd say Mainspring Needs Replaced. I believe that's the case with this Edison. But before I go ordering springs, I thought I'd check with y'all who know things.

With the belt off, the motor runs nicely. The upper gear train runs smoothly by hand power. With the belt on, it's as above. Am I right about the mainspring, or what do you think?

bangster

[52089]

There are lots of threads on this board about this topic. The general upshot is that something is robbing you of power. In no particular order:

1) too little/too much lubrication
2) too much force on feedscrew
3) belt tensioner wheel frozen
4) belt too loose or too tight
5) mainspring is shot

I'd suggest you search the board for discussions of the above. You may need to do more than one thing. It's a balancing act...

Good luck!

[martinola]

Bangster,

The Standard has a lot of areas that can rob power. Every time I suspect that the mainspring is "tired", I've ended up finding that mechanical binding in other areas was causing the problem. As a result, for instance, I still have an unused replacement Squaretop Standard mainspring that hasn't been needed in the three I have.

I'm not saying that they never lose power, but that I'd be looking in the lower and upper gear trains, belt & et cetera before I'd change the mainspring. My last motor rebuild took two cleanings of the gear trains in lacquer thinner and quite a bit of adjusting to get the machine working properly. The multiple small inefficiencies do add up. However, once they are all balanced-out, the Standard is a pretty robust little machine. Stick with it; you'll get it.

Regards,
Martin

[bangster]

There was a lot of bottom-end noise. I quieted it with grease on the speed controller gear. Could that create enough drag to rob power? Am I in a Catch-22?

[JerryVan]

What era of Standard is it? Does it have an end gate or is it the "floating mandrel" style, with the support bushing on the left end of the mandrel? If it's the latter it can be a b$%^ch to get everything free and aligned between the bushing and the end pin. If it's the former, are the two end centers adjusted too tight and pinching the mandrel shaft?

Also, is the half-nut bar adjusted to push against the feed screw too tight? The half nut should JUST make contact with the feed screw when the carriage bottoms out, without flexing the half nut bar. When that half nut is just a bit too tight, it's like putting on the brakes.

Are the feed screw end pins too tight, binding up the feed screw?

[bangster]

End gate. I've tried to get the mandrel centers adjusted with just a smidgen of slack. Same with the feed screw. Half-nut isn't a factor, since things bog down before it's engaged.

Here's what I done did: Disassembled bottom end completely (except for the speed regulator, and didn't take the mainspring out of the barrel). Cleaned all parts with mineral spirits in a "shaker", then by hand. Dried everything out, then added mainspring lube through the aperture. Reassembled, lubed appropriate points with 0w-10 synthetic. Gave speed regulator slight end-shake. Lubed its gear with medium grease to quiet it down. Bottom end runs jes' fine.

Disassembled top end, hand-cleaned all parts. Reassembled, added oil to pivots, Vaseline to little gears. I don't understand the gear with a stem out through the casting and a knob on the end. What's the knob for? There's a keyway in the shaft with a leaf spring in it. What's that for? Upper gear train seems to run smoothly when turned by hand.

With belt installed, tensioner seems to be working right --supplying tension, don't know anything about how to adjust that. Everything runs weakly with empty mandrel, bogs down with cylinder on board even with carriage not engaged.

Question: How many half-turns of the crank should it take from fully run down to fully wound?

I've tried to cover all bases, but may not have. Is there any special problem with the upper gear train that I haven't noticed? Any word on how easily it should turn when hand-turning the mandrel? When hand-turning the gear that drives the feed screw?

Thanks for the advice. But I'm still leaning toward weak mainspring, until I can find a source of resistance in the upper end.

bangster

[JerryVan]

How far have you wound it? Wind it up right to the end, where you feel resistance signifying that it's fully wound. Just don't come up hard on the end.

Is the little brass wheel turning on the tensioner.

The knob on the end is to shift the drive gears to play 2 minute or 4 minute records. Slide the shaft in or out of the casting to shift gears. The little leaf spring is just to put tension on the action of that shaft, so it can't wander out of place during play.

[Phonolair]

End gate. I've tried to get the mandrel centers adjusted with just a smidgen of slack.

Any word on how easily it should turn when hand-turning the mandrel? When hand-turning the gear that drives the feed screw?

bangster

Something is not adding up here.
If you have a end gate and mandrel centers(model A & B) than you should not have a 2 & 4 minute shift knob and shaft with the flat spring in it( model D & F)

With the belt disconnected you should be able to spin the mandrel and the mandrel and gears should free wheel at least a few of times around but several times is better.

Larry Crandell

[Lucius1958]

I think some photos would help to explain the situation.

You say you did not disassemble the 'speed regulator': does that mean that you did not disassemble and clean the governor?

Bill

[bangster]

]If governor = thing with weights and springs that I called "speed control", then no, I didn't take it apart. Saw no need to. Cleaned it intact. seems to work fine.

I had the upper gear train set up wrong, because I didn't understand the gear with the knob. It is, in fact, a switch between 2 min/4 min. See pics, If I can remember how to upload them.

phono e crop.jpg (208.44 KiB) Viewed 2733 times

Apparently, Model B isn't supposed to have this. But Reiss shows a Model C with it, and supposes it came from the factory that way. This suggests to me that it might have been an optional add-on, and somebody added it on to this here Model B.

With gear train set up correctly, the power lack continues. I tried the test of spinning the mandrel with the belt off, and it coasted one full turn.

I'm going to see everything else y'all have to tell me, before I go ordering a new mainspring.

bangster