Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

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SonnyPhono
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Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by SonnyPhono »

Last night I decided to finally organize my records and cylinders as I keep picking them up cheap at auctions and from random garage sales and whatnot. I haven't even looked into the title I have until trying to organize them and found that after grouping them appropriately by type of cylinders, I still haven't a clue what I have by means of rarities or collectible titles. In fact, I wasn't even aware of the many types of cylinders produced by Edison and Columbia alone! I think I counted 11 different styles of cylinders and below is a picture of them in groups. Here is what I have come up with.

I have brown wax Edison cylinders as well as Columbia. I have several Edison and Columbia cylinders with rounded ends that are free from any writing. The title and/or number is just imprinted below the rim on the side of the cylinder. I'm guessing these were next in age after the brown wax? Then I have many Columbia cylinders with a metal reinforcement ring and flat rims with the title, artist and a date of July 29,'02. Some are 2 minute and some are 4 minute. (The 4 minute cylinders have a "4M. just before the number of cylinder.) Then I have what appears to be Edison 4 minute black wax cylinders? They all have the "4M- then the number of cylinder and have flat rims. Next, there are many black edison cylinders with beveled tops that I believe are wax. Half of the cylinders of this style are completely smooth inside and the other half have a black spiral wax ridge running throughout the inside similar to the plaster on Blue Amberols. Then there are a couple dozen Blue Amberol cylinders with the flat tops. Some of these say "special" on them. Next, 3 dozen or so Blue Amberol cylinders with beveled tops, which I am assuming are the most recent in the production of cylinders. There are 5 or so very light blue cylinders with the metal rings inside that I am assuming may be Oxford or Indestructible? There is also a Lakeside cylinder in the bunch.

Anyway, I have about 90% of the original boxes with matching lids as well as some of the slips that go with the early Edison cylinders. The problem is, I haven't a clue as to which ones are valuable, rare, or more desirable for a collection. I organized these to sell but don't know where to start when it comes to what to look for with regards to the hard to find cylinders. Obviously condition, title, and the artist play a major factor in the desirability of a cylinder, as well as subject.

Aside from that, could anyone give me numbers to look for, styles that are more sought after than others, or any other identifying characteristics to watch for when going through these? I know that most Blue Amberol cylinders over 5000 tend to be collectible, and that foreign cylinders and cylinders in the 29000's are nice finds. But before I sell these cylinders as a lot, what should I be on the look out for?

Any help would greatly be appreciated!

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SonnyPhono
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by SonnyPhono »

I forgot to mention a very important reason for posting this thread. I need to find the rare or collectible cylinders in the bunch I have to keep for my collection. I would like to sell all the others to fund the hobby further but don't want to sell any cylinders only to later kick myself for letting go of a tough-to-find record. So I am trying to get some advice from all of you who know and could let me in on which series/cylinders are sought after so that I can hold on to them for my personal collection. At that point, I will be selling the rest to fund my future finds! :)

Thanks again in advance for any advice/help!

phonophan79
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by phonophan79 »

Listen to them and keep what you like... :D

martinola
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by martinola »

You're going to want to hit me, but I suggest separating into yet another grouping. Generally speaking, the ones in the best physical condition (less mold, worn or messed up grooves) are going to be the more valuable ones.

Clean brown wax is almost always worth more than black wax or blue amberol. If you have "Take me out to the Ballgame" or any of the Roosevelt, Taft, or Bryan cylinders, they will be worth a good deal more than the run-of-the-mill stuff. Generally, I'd follow Phonophan79's advice and listen to them. I think you'll find yourself keeping the the ones that sound the best. I suspect that some of the very moldy black wax you have pictured will be pretty nigh unplayable. If you want to ID any of the plain-end black wax, they usually have a number engraved in the plain run-out area. It should be four numbers if it's an Edison record. Using that number you can look-up the title. (I believe I've seen an Excel file of cylinder numbers on this board.) If not, I'd be happy to email my copy to you (if I can find it). Also you may find Glenn Sage's website helpful in getting a better idea of the history behind these records. http://www.tinfoil.com/

Good luck!
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Brad
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by Brad »

phonophan79 wrote:Listen to them and keep what you like... :D
Excellent advice, Dean.

Rarity/value of cylinders and records is a fickle thing. There were hundreds of millions of these things produced and who knows how many are left. Rarity/value may be driven by the number produced, or the title or artist. (e.g. anything with Edisons voice goes for big money)

I can offer these few things:
  • Brown wax in good condition tends to have value.
  • Blue Amberols with numbers in the 5000's were at the end of the business and few were produced, these tend to be rare.
  • 4 minute Amberol wax cylinders are prone to easily wear out and crack.
  • Indestructibles also tend to fetch a little more.
  • Anything with Bing Crosby, though nostalgic, is not worth much. :roll:
A good source of information (besides watching ebay) is to get hooked up with Naucks and Hawthornes record auctions. They will charge you for the catalogs if you don't bid, but you will see what the minimum bids are on things. Nauck will also sell you, for a couple of bucks, the database of what everything actually sold for. Given that these are silent auctions so there is no bidding frenzy, just "I gotta have it bids".

That is about the best you will do that I am aware of.

Nice collection of cylinders, though from my perspective, you are a long way from having too many! :)
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Shane
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by Shane »

In addition to those early valuable brown wax cylinders, also keep any cylinder that has music on it that a person in today's society would recognize. As mentioned before, titles like "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" and "Dixie", "Pop Goes The Weasel" and even well-known Christmas tunes like "Silent Night" have value.

phonophan79
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by phonophan79 »

Do you have the appropriate players for all those varied cylinders?

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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by gramophoneshane »

You are right in thinking the blunt-end black wax cylinders with no title info, are the next step from brown wax. These were the first of the "gold moulded" records. Along with the record number scratched into the run-out area, you find Edisons signature too, if they are indeed Edisons.

The pale blue celluloid cylinders with the metal rims, I believe are Oxfords, & date from between 1917 & 1922. I dont think "all" Oxfords were blue, but as far as I know, Oxford (Sears) were the only ones supplied with blue Indestructibles.

It's a bit hard to list what I'd consider rare & valuable, but I can tell you what I'd consider to be the most "collectible".
In the 2 min cylinders (including the Indestructibles etc), generally the most popular with collectors are "Coon Songs". Comedy songs & vaudville/music hall are also keepers in my books. Also, songs for xmas, new years, halloween etc can go for above average prices at times, as can songs about transport... planes, trains, ships, automobiles etc, and songs related to sports....baseball, cricket, football etc.

The 4 minute wax Edisons aren't very popular with most collectors, mainly because they are extremely fragile. These can crack just sitting in a cupboard due to changes in room temperature. Even warm fingers inserted into the cylinder, or a cold mandrel can make them split or shatter.
They can also be a mixed bag were sound quality is concerned. Some sound as good as blue Amberols, where others are hardly audible due to surface noise. These problems were there from the start, and earned them the name "Damberolas" amoung dealers.
Again, if I was keeping any of those, I'd keep cylinders of the genres mentioned above, and perhaps any music for dancing, such as one-steps etc.
In my opinion, there was some really good songs on 4 minute wax that never got transfered to Blue Amberol, so it might be a good idea to listen to these in particular, and keep any you like & those that reproduce well.

Blue Amberols in the genres above are also worth keeping I think, but probably the most popular with collectors are Dance Band recordings. Ragtime was ending, & foxtrots etc were gaining popularity during the BA period, so you can find some of the very earliest dance bands, right up to the hottest jazz of the late 20's. I think these will always be amongst the most desirable cylinders, because you can build a collection of dance records from it's birth through to it's peak.

The cylinders marked "special" were given away by Edison as part of the early 4 minute gear upgrade kits for 2 minute machines, & were made in 4 min wax & BA's. There were 10 "special" titles, but in my opinion, theres only 3 or 4 that are worth listening to. They are not rare by any means, but some people like to collect the whole set of 10, so I guess it will depend on the sort of collector you are with those.
The flat top Edison BA's are the earliest & were made for about the first 2 years of production. These were recorded direct by the artist to the master, and are generally of good sound quality. Later on, after the bevelled edge BA's were introduced, the masters were dubbed from diamond disc records, so you can sometimes find these cylinders wont sound quite as good as the flat-end records.

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SonnyPhono
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by SonnyPhono »

Thanks to all of you for the helpful advice. It still amazes me to receive such helpful support so quickly when I have questions.

Phonophan79, I liked your advice! Pretty simple and to logical. Listen and keep what I like! :) I do have machines to listen to 2 and 4 minute cylinders as well.

Martinola, I was happy to hear your advice as I had already started separating the clean cylinders from the ones with faults and that has made some of the grouping decisions easier. And I appreciate the reference site you mentioned. I have found that my favorite site to learn about cylinders is http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/. You can put any # in the search field and it will return the cylinder with a lot of info about it and most are digitally recorded so you can hear them while you research them. I will check out the site you mentioned though, thank you.

Good info Brad. I appreciate it. Generally speaking, I knew that brown wax, Blue Amberols over 5000 etc. tend to go higher. But I have seen some random titles on other numbered series go high too and wasn't sure if there was a list of the desirable #'s or not.

So should I not take the time and risk to sell the 4 min black wax cylinders? Most of them are in very good shape with no cracks, scratches, or chips. The white paint is even clean and clear on most. I thought they would generally bring more as they weren't made very long relatively speaking.

It's good to know that the indestructible cylinders tend to go for more. I have several of those in good shape that I don't have much interest in. And I wasn't aware that the special cylinders are fairly common. I was going to try to collect all ten and thought I was ahead of the game having 7 with original boxes and lids within about 10 months of collecting. But, like you mentioned, the music is sub par at best for the most part. So I may put some of those up for sale too.

If anyone thinks of any specific #'s that I should keep an eye out for I would love to start a spreadsheet. I recorded all of the #'s of the cylinders I have and it would be nice to be able to compare side by side so I could recognize when I find a good one as I am far too new to recognize titles or artists. If anyone has any suggestions for some good Diamond Discs, that would be helpful too. I started documenting those about an hour ago as I have many and don't know much about the history on these or which ones are rare/valuable. This may be a dumb question, but some of my Diamond Discs have labels that say "Edison Record", while others say, "Edison Re-Creation". Whats the difference between these?

Thanks again everyone for all of the helpful and generous insight! I truly appreciate it!

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Viva-Tonal
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Re: Calling All Experts For Some Record Help!!

Post by Viva-Tonal »

The Edison DDs that say 'EDISON RECORD' on the labels are the later ones. I think the name change occurred in 1923 or 1924. I don't know how high the classical numbers go, but the main pop series that started at 50000 or 50001 in 1913 ended at 52651 in late 1929.

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