Recording with Edison business phonograph model D

[Rancine]

Hello Everyone,

I got an old Edison Business Phonograph Model D lately and i am struggling with it since I am new to phonograph related topics. I bought it from ebay and actually it should be in a good condition. but I don't have a reference with phonographs. my main intention is to record with it (I also have a shaver).
I didn't achieve any good recordings so far only crackle and I have no clue where the problem is actually...
I experimented with different wax cylinders and only with one I could achieve of record something but a with a lot of crackle and the wanted signal was very silent compared to the crackle.
I need to make this work fast because it is part of my diploma...
I would appreciate any tips concerning recording topics: what are the factors and where potential problems? Like the thickness of the wax? Is a horn fine for recording or are there better solutions?
Thank you in advance.
Greetings!

[gramophoneshane]

You might want to try warming the cylinder as you record. I sit a strong electric light about 10" from the cylinder & let it rotate for minute or so before recording, to soften the surface of the wax for easier cutting. Provided the recorder is working properly & the cutting stylus is good, you should get sound quality like in the video below. I just used a 14" cardboard cone shaped horn that I made to record this one.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jywS4gyEDJQ[/youtube]

[Rancine]

Ok, I will try this.
How did you record actually the kylie song? Did you put a box directly to the horn. Mine looks like this http://i21.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/cf/11/6d95_2.JPG.

I have noticed a variation of the speed which is connected to thickness of the wax cylinder...
How tight should the recorder sit on the cylinder? How can I find out if the phonograph Work with the right speed?

thx
rancine

[Rancine]

for making things more clear i have uploaded an audio file (i recorderd a melodica): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/871909/rec_test.mp3
and some photos containing the parts which i think deal with making a good recording:
http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/871909/1 ... h?h=0d0b04

as far as i found out "regulator2" and "screw_back" are connected in some ways (sorry for not using the right words maybe). i tried to let the needle not to get to hard on the wax plate. also when the needle is graving in to deep the "tonearm" doesn't move further or the speed goes down and stays in a kind of "endless loop". so i adjust the back screw a bit or work with "regulator". the same counts partly for playing back...

i also put photos of the recorder and reproducers in the gallery...

it is hard for me to find out what the problem is for getting a good self made record and where i should start or what i can make different.
help is pretty much appreciated.
many thx
greetings

[Lenoirstreetguy]

The business phonograph records at speeds slower that the musical cylinders: about 120 rpm or so. It seems that your recorder isn't moving along the cylinder as you attempt to record. Is that the problem or am I confused?

J

[martinola]

Hi Rancine.

It's difficult to quite know where to begin in advising you in this process. My first and best suggestion is to get a copy of "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss. It's a great overview of collecting and restoring antique phonographs. There is a whole chapter devoted to recording on cylinder machines. I got mine from the Antique Phonograph Supply Company (APSCO) years ago, and it was the best investment I've made. I've also seen it offered on eBay by others.

Generally speaking, you will have to make sure that your machine is running and adjusted properly, before you even think of making recordings. Everything needs to be clean and all sliding parts and bearings need to be lubricated to work freely. Lenoirstreetguy is quite right about the Business phonograph being a slower speed than the regular entertainment phonograph. (I thought it was 90 rpm, but I really don't know.) It also records in a different thread pitch than the entertainment phonograph. The Business machine uses 150 turns-per-inch (TPI) vs the 100 TPI for the regular 2 minute phonograph. Neither of these issues make a difference to you as long as you use only the Business phonograph as your record and playback machine.

You seem to be describing two problems: the machine slows when you try to record, and the record head isn't advancing. There is always going to be a certain amount of slowing when recording. Cutting is a bigger drag on the mechanism than playback. When I've recorded, I used a test cylinder and adjusted the speed to my desired playback speed while cutting. (If you don't mind adjusting your playback speed AFTER you record, then you can skip doing that.) Perhaps you are cutting too deep and stalling out the system. Is your cylinder a proper blank? Is it shaved and smooth and shiny? Is your cutting sapphire in good condition? (Actually, that also brings up the question; is your reproducer sapphire (stylus)in good shape?) As to the issue of the recorder not advancing, it sounds as if the feedscrew is not driving your (recorder/reproducer)Carrier arm. Are the belts present? If you run it without a cylinder, does it all seem to move correctly?

There are a lot of mechanical issues involved with these old machines that often have to be addressed before one can successfully record and playback. It's not impossible, but it may require some patience, repair and experimentation. Business machines have additional problems such as the greater use of potmetal (which swells and crumbles) and fewer parts seem to be available. Again, this is not insurmountable, but potentially harder than using something like the Standard or Home model A or B to to this kind of thing. In any case, let us know how it's going and what you find out. Also - photos. We love photos. Photos can really help to illustrate what you're saying. Good luck and keep us posted!

Regards,
Martin

EDIT: I'm sorry, I now realize that you included a link to your photos and sound file and I didn't look at it. Now that I have looked at it, it looks and sounds like you have a crack in your cylinder, which isn't good for the styli. I'm not familiar with the early Business phonographs, but are they really for Ediphone cylinders (which are thicker) or do they use the earlier Edison brown wax blanks? I'm kind of thinking you might need the earlier style blank and that the extra thickness of the Ediphone cylinder is dragging your mechanism. Anybody else? - Martin

[Rancine]

Hello again
First many thanks for the replies. I know that it is not easy to give advice through the internet.

Generally speaking, you will have to make sure that your machine is running and adjusted properly, before you even think of making recordings.

Since i knew that a phonograph is something delicat i bought mine on ebay which was described as fully functional and restaurated. I paid pretty much for it also because i knew that i am not a restaurater. so i hoped it will arrive and just work. maybe that was a bit naive.

You seem to be describing two problems: the machine slows when you try to record, and the record head isn't advancing.

I am aware of this. these things are kind connected as far as i can judge. i tried to let to cutting head only be slightly over the cylinder. with some cylinders it worked with some it did stall out the system. so i tried to adjust the cutting head with wath i labeld as "regulator" in the pictures. with this i had a little more margin with the record head still advancing...

Is your cylinder a proper blank? Is it shaved and smooth and shiny?

I have also a shaver and six cylinders. i shaved them quite often during the testing process... maybe i should shave them deeper?

Is your cutting sapphire in good condition? (Actually, that also brings up the question; is your reproducer sapphire (stylus)in good shape?)

Thats my problem i can't really judge these things... i put pictures online but i dont know if one can judge this by pictures...
Thats my general problem i recognize that i have no reference...
Is there for a example a possibility to find out if it is running in the right speed also when it records? And i am still wondering about the loundness and clearness of the recorded material but what i looked up on the internet it should be possible to have a clear playback, from which i am miles away right now...

Like i mentioned before maybe i thought it was too easy assuming to buy a machine and just record. I need this for my diploma which i have to finish soon, but i know that i have to be patient and think that is also an interesting part... So i am kind of struggling because i have the feeling that it goes beyond my capabilities but i am very happy that i found this forum.

greetings





greetings

[edisonphonoworks]

The belt on these have to be perfect to work correctly, I have a 1930s Ediphone, and even the belt I have introduces a little warble, the slids for the carrage assembly should be dis assembled and cleaned. The reproducer looks pretty good, but the recorder, looks like the gaskets are cracked, you can replace these by getting 2 thin c gaskets, and putting one on the top and the other on the bottom of the diaphragm, with a little blue RTV selant, or better yet rubber cement applied with a toothpick and connecting it to the recorder body with rubber cement, do not use the yellow contact cement, as this ruins everything. The cutter is suspicious too, as I have not seen one just connected on the center, these usually go all the way to the edge of the recorder, and 2 minute cutters are a little big for the grooves of a Business machine. However the holder does look to be a copper, one,which indicates an original cutting stylus. It has been a very long time since I looked at the earlier business machine. The recordings marked Ediphone are recorded on a 1936 Ediphone Executive, The recorder is very similar to the business machine, manufacture no. 2 shows the recording quality, this machine is almost mint, original gaskets, that are not cracked and are supple. http://www.myspace.com/thenorthamerican ... aphcompany

[martinola]

Rancine -
Since you brought up the subject of proper speed, I poked around a bit and found that Nauck's Vintage Records still has their free stroboscope program. It's pretty crude, but it gets the job done and it's free. They do sell a really nice digital strobe, but this will work. You'll need a Windows computer and you'll be using the command line. (ie: DOS) Here is the link:

http://www.78rpm.com/rescat/strobe_info.htm

Anyway, good luck with it.

Regards,
Martin

[Rancine]

@edisonphonoworks
Had a look through your side and liked it pretty much. i wonderd since it isn't mentioned in the recording hints and tips section, how recording behaves from prerecorded material played back by a loudspeaker, cause thats actually what i am up to - produce own material, transfer it to the phonograph, and then back to the computer for further processing...

you can replace these by getting 2 thin c gaskets, and putting one on the top and the other on the bottom of the diaphragm,

can you explain to me what the c is standing for? and since i can only spot one gasket on my recorder i wasn't sure where i should put the second one exactly...?

the cutter is suspicious too, as I have not seen one just connected on the center, these usually go all the way to the edge of the recorder

i have looked at it more closely and saw stains maybe from a old cutter which seems to be replaced by the a different one. i think maybe this lead also to the crack of the gasket...
i have uploaded a new image of the recorder (recorder 2):

http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/871909/1 ... h?h=0d0b04

there you will see more clearly what i am talking about...
is there a chance to get this recorder work in a accceptable manner?

@martinola
many thx for the link. i will soon check if it is running with the right speed...

thank you for your time
greetings