An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Discussions on Talking Machines & Accessories
User avatar
Inigo
Victor Monarch
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by Inigo »

An experiment I cannot do...

While observing in this forum and elsewhere the old style HMV/Victor machines that have the gooseneck tonearm, a wicked idea has arised on my mind. This I cannot put into effect, for I don't own one of these machines, nor I have access to any.

It seems there were several versions of this tonearm:
1) the first one with thin tonearm and gooseneck, the soundbox placed in the tonearm axis, so when the gooseneck is flipped over to the rest position, it falls on the tonearm.
2) a second version, equal to the first one in the essential, but using a fat tonearm.
3) a later version with a long gooseneck, so when the gooseneck is filpped over to the rest position, the soundbox falls at the inner side of the tonearm, between the tonearm and the TT spindle.

These three versions, and especially the (3) have a common fatal design error: the tracking is horrible, especially at the outer edge of records. The system seems to be designed so that the needle point falls on the TT spindle. Horror...! And the 'improvement' (3) is stioll worse, for it impairs the offset —the theoretical distance between the diaphragm plane and the tonearm base joint axis—. Still worse horror... Panic...!

I cannot attest this 100%, for I have no gooseneck machines to test. I'm only speaking based on the photos and videos I've seen.

There was years ago a thread (maybe at 78-L) about an improved gooseneck, which used a slightly different design; the U-tube (I'm tired of writing goosenecks, :) ) was not a 180 degrees turn, but a more open angle (160 degrees, f.i.) so the offset was far better, and so the tracking error was reduced. EMG gooseneck tonearms have, of course, taken this into account in the design, and tracking is near perfect.

You can see why version (3) of the arrangement, for this very reason, was worse than (1) and (2). They moved the soundnbox in the opposite direction to what is needed.

I'm always thinking that if I ever had one of those machines, the first thing I would try is to reverse the gooseneck position: instead of being installed to the outside (with respect to the TT spindle), closing screw on the outside, I would invert this arrangement, reinstalling the U-tube it at the outside, leaving the closing screw at the inside. This looks as it can improve tracking somehow. At least, the offset, especially in model (3), would be improved. Of course, the soundbox would have to be installed a-la-Panatrope, with the backplate at the outside. The only inconvenient I see is that the pin for the soundbox zenith angle would have to be removed, so the soundbox can be mounted on the gooseneck in reverse.

Would any kind and daring soul in this forum make the experiment for me, and send before-and-after photos, so we can see the tracking results...?

If there's someone, many thanks. You've helped me to pay off about this matter...

If not, I would have to look for a gooseneck machine at a museum or somewhere, near the closing time, and try myself very fast, when nobody's looking...!!!

:)
Inigo

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor Monarch
Posts: 4349
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by gramophone-georg »

Perhaps I am not following what you are saying but I can't visualize any way to do what you are proposing. Even if you COULD flip the gooseneck over I don't see how that changes the angle. I should think the better way to do this might be to angle the part of the neck where the soundbox mounts- OR create a sort of offset isolator for the SB that could add some better angle.
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
Inigo
Victor Monarch
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by Inigo »

Sorry, sorry..... Maybe my conclusion is incomplete.
I mean that the flip over would improve the tracking angle in my referred case as version (3) which has a negative offset. In versions (1) or (2), where the soundbox is more or less aligned with the tonearm axis, it would remain in the same relative position, offset zero, so no improvement at all.
It would be better off I add a drawing of the issue. Later at home...
Inigo

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor Monarch
Posts: 4349
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by gramophone-georg »

Inigo wrote:Sorry, sorry..... Maybe my conclusion is incomplete.
I mean that the flip over would improve the tracking angle in my referred case as version (3) which has a negative offset. In versions (1) or (2), where the soundbox is more or less aligned with the tonearm axis, it would remain in the same relative position, offset zero, so no improvement at all.
It would be better off I add a drawing of the issue. Later at home...
I think I have a spare gooseneck or 2 sitting around... one is off an HMV suitcase portable. The other I am not sure of but one is fat, one is skinny. If you cannot find any locally I could send for postage costs if you like- IF I can find them! :lol:

I'm attaching a photo of what I'm talking about. See what I've done with the soundbox? It almost seems as if this could easily be accomplished by an offset cast isolator or perhaps a small adapter between the SB and the gooseneck.
Attachments
HPIM5155.JPG
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
AZ*
Victor IV
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: USA

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by AZ* »

Not possible for fat tonearm. While you can perform the flip you suggest on the skinny gooseneck, it won't work for the fat one due to the way the arm is constructed. The skinny arm is open at both sides where the U tube connects. On the fat arm, it is open on one side, but there is only a small hole for the machine screw on the other. Sorry.
Image
Best regards ... AZ*

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor Monarch
Posts: 4349
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by gramophone-georg »

Maybe I am mixing up my goosenecks and swan necks. :lol: But I think my solution works in all cases.
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
Henry
Victor V
Posts: 2624
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by Henry »

Somewhat O/T: any suggestions for removing the plug on a "skinny" taper tube U-bend? It's not threaded on, is it?

VanEpsFan1914
Victor VI
Posts: 3375
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:39 am
Personal Text: I've got both kinds of music--classical & rag-time.
Location: South Carolina

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by VanEpsFan1914 »

It is threaded on. You'll probably have to drip some penetrating oil on it...of course, without letting it dribble on the felt.

Then take a quarter and back it out. It's threaded same as any other part.

User avatar
Governor Flyball
Victor II
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by Governor Flyball »

The question is what is the benefit of reducing the tracking error on an acoustic playback machine?

Tracking error reduces the frequency response. But since the upper limit of the frequency response is about 4.5kHz, reducing the tracking error will not help here.

Will reducing tracking error reduce wear? With the high tracking force and steel or fiber needles, there is no benefit here.

So please explain was is the point of this discussion?

wjw
Victor II
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:57 pm
Location: greater bubbaville

Re: An experiment I cannot do... gooseneck tonearms

Post by wjw »

Governor Flyball wrote:The question is what is the benefit of reducing the tracking error on an acoustic machine?
The pre-1925 machines, with very few exceptions, were pretty good at mauling the first part of a 12 inch disc, especially the ones with the shorter tone arms. It's a shame that Victor,Columbia etc didn't address this early on.
If one likes to play a lot of records on these machines and improving the tracking is possible (as it certainly is with Exhibition and No.2 isolators), the records will exhibit less wear with a steel needle and a fiber needle will keep its point longer.
-bill

Post Reply