HMV and Gold Plating?

[Zeppy]

I've just been pondering, did our friends across the pond use gold plating on their high end machines? Even for machines that were on par to the VV-XVI, I seem to recall seeing only nickel plating (and I don't think I've ever seen their versions of the Exhibition, No. 2 or No. 4 with gold plate).

Just curious if anyone can confirm or deny this observation.

[gramophoneshane]

Well...No, they never used gold plating, but they did use a gold lacquer. It's very seldom used, and sometimes, it's only used on various parts (as on my Aussie Mahogany Library Grand).
The 510 and 460 lumiere pleated diaphragm models had gold hardware, and the models 511 & 461 which used their old cabinets were one of the few machines I know of that actually used a gold coloured tonearm & No.4 soundbox to match the other hardware.
The model 15 (which is pretty much a VE-XVII) is listed as having "gold plating throughout", so I assume this model also had gold running gear (tonearm etc), but the models 14 & 13 (kind of similar to the late VV-XVI & XIVs) are listed as having "gold plated fittings", so I assume that like my aussie export model, these only had gold hinges, knobs, locks & lid stays with the tonearm, speed control & other running gear remaining nickel plated.
Of course, the mahogany 194 & 203 Re-entrants also had gold parts, but as far as I'm aware, this too is only gold lacquer and not actually gold electrplating.
Another all gold model I can think of is the "Deluxe" red leather 101 & 102, and I think (?) the 192 had gold parts including running gear.
Oh, and the 265 console (humpback Victrola) had gold running gear too, so there are gold "lacquered" Exhibitions, No 2s & 4s out there, but they are very few & far between.

Hopefully Steve can add any other "gold" models & make any correction to what I've posted.

Here's a picture of the 461, taken from the Japanese "Umeya" site. It's one of the few machines you'll see with a gold tonearm & soundbox. Note that the crank is still only nickel plated, and exactly as it was sold originally. I have no idea why they were into this mixing and matching of plating on various models, but I think it looks shocking, and would like to slap the freak at HMV who thought it was a good idea

[AZ*]

My HMV cabinet models 192, 211, 261 & 511 all have gold hardware including hinges, tonearms, soundboxes, etc. similar to the 461 pictured. The catalog listing as GS has stated, lists these as "gold plated." If these parts are actually painted gold, like some of the later Victrolas, I cannot confirm.

[Steve]

HMV definitely DID gold plate all their 'top-of-the-line' machines ala Victor, however they did drop the dull finish gold plating for a short time around the mid-1920's in favour of that gold lacquer pictured on the 461 above. The 201, 211 and 267, 460, 510, 511 etc also had the same finish. The late re-entrant models 194 and 203 reverted back to the earlier 'proper' gold plating.

I should point out perhaps that the catalogues NEVER made any distinction between gold plating and 'lacquering'. It was all listed as 'gold plated' even though it clearly isn't on the shiny mirror finish items.

Maybe also it's worth saying that HMV was one of the least consistent manufacturers producing machines at the time. In recent years machines have come to light that clearly demonstrate the company used up whatever spare parts were lying around on the factory floor. The example of a 461 pictured above might even be gold plated as I have seen some examples with the dull gold (plating) whereas the vast majority of extant examples have that gold lacquer with mirror finish.

Shane, a few corrections to your post if I may. The machines that were listed as 'gold plated' (whatever they actually were) had ALL their parts gilded: tone-arm, soundboxes, turntables, brakes, speed controls and yes, winding handles too etc and not just hinges. However for the reasons I stated above some of the machines did escape the factory with nickel plated winders. But, do also bear in mind that some of these handles could have been swapped by dopey collectors much later on! Just to add to the confusion, the later HMV machines had bronze 'oxidised brass' hardware to the outside fittings, thus a Lumiere AND 461 (or 510 and converted 511) should not have gold plated winders OR nickel plated winders BUT OXIDISED BRASS finish! Sometimes when the steel components rust, the plating is lost and someone comes along and polishes the handle up to a shiny bare steel finish (is that what we see above?).

The 194, 203 models also had GENUINE gold plating. The earlier models: 14/15, the 190, 191, 192 all had gold plated hardware. The 181, 265, 267, 211 and most of the Lumiere variants had gold lacquer, described as plating.

Just to throw yet another spanner into the works, my French HMV Lumiere Table Grand has gold plated winding handle and escutcheon BUT gold lacquered internal fittings: turntable, needle bowls, speed controls etc, all with mirror finish gold!

PS - looking again at the 461 above, I'm tempted to suggest that my assumption that the winder could have been 'polished back to bare steel' is correct. Please note the bare brass escutcheon. This should DEFINITELY be oxidised brass (bronze colour) finish and therefore demonstrates that the example pictured has been polished up much later on by someone who was perhaps a little over-enthusiastic!

[gramophoneshane]

Thanks for clearing that up Steve. Both the Colonel & Gramophile has stated to me in a thread on the UK board that most HMV Cabinets have Gilt - Hinges/Lid stay etc but nickelled tonearms etc .
Im also yet to see a 450/451 that didn't have a nickeled crank- either in real life or on the web.
I've only ever seen one 510, and to be honest, I cant remember what crank it had.
So am I now wrong to believe that HMV did mix nickel plated running gear with gold hardware on most machines?
Im a little confused now as to whether my Australian variation of the model 11 cabinet grand should have a gold tonearm etc to match the lidstay, locks etc or not

[Steve]

Thanks for clearing that up Steve. Both the Colonel & Gramophile has stated to me in a thread on the UK board that most HMV Cabinets have Gilt - Hinges/Lid stay etc but nickelled tonearms etc .

Hmmm...not totally convinced that is right HOWEVER some cabinets do indeed have gilt hinges, even if they only have nickel plated hardware INSIDE. Please don't assume or convince yourself though that an HMV cabinet machine with any gilt on the hinges was a special machine or a top-of-the-range model: not so! Maybe this is why there is some confusion over whether HMV gilded the tone-arms / soundboxes?

Im also yet to see a 450/451 that didn't have a nickeled crank- either in real life or on the web.
I've only ever seen one 510, and to be honest, I cant remember what crank it had.

Do you mean 460/461? I believe the 450 is my French Lumiere table machine and I assume not what you are referring to? I have had several 460 models and they have ALL had oxidised external hardware which is correct. A few odd 'escapees' might have had nickel plated winding handles and some others might have been replaced with the incorrect ones anyway - using the 'odd' specimens as a reference, maybe?

So am I now wrong to believe that HMV did mix nickel plated running gear with gold hardware on most machines?

Yes!

Im a little confused now as to whether my Australian variation of the model 11 cabinet grand should have a gold tonearm etc to match the lidstay, locks etc or not

[/quote]

I seriously doubt it should. The gold lidstay and lock would be right, even if the tone-arm / soundbox were nickel. It's worth remembering that comparatively few of the models ever had GOLD finish (lacquer or electro-plating) as this was reserved for the most expensive machines exclusively. And, as we now know, the poor ol' Ozzies, got what was left over anyway!

[gramophoneshane]

Yes, I did indeed mean the 460/461 models.
I'm also guessing that by "gilt", you (& the Colonel) are referring to the gold lacquer over brass, referred to in the catalogues as gold plating?
There are also "satin brass fittings" mentioned in the 1921 catalogue for the models 11 & 12, but I dont think I've ever seen an example of the satin brass finish. Even though my "Mahogany Library Grand" appears to be what was sold in UK as the Model 11, it definately has the mirror finish lacquered brass "gold plating" and not the satin brass, which seems very odd that they'd bother plating (lacquering) all those parts differently just to use on machines to be sent down here.
All the other Australian line models, including the more luxurious models like the "studio grand", all have nickel plated hardware and running gear, so it appears this MLG model was the only one we got with gold anything on it. I guess I'll really just have to wait & see if another MLG turns up here, to see just what plating the running gear actually had.

[Steve]

By gilding I am actually using the term in the blanket sense to cover 'lacquer' and 'plating' in GOLD.

[AZ*]

Thanks for the tutorial on the HMV plating vs. lacquering. I knew there was a difference in appearance, but I didn't know why. Now I do.

The interesting thing is that the Victor gold-painted (not plated) hardware has a satiny appearance not unlike the HMV gold plated hardware.

[Zeppy]

Now after all this, I'm still pondering, are there gold colored (non-nickel) HMV Exhibitions and No 2s (since there is the picture of the 4 to answer that question)? I'm still a touch confused.

Call me slow, if you must...