Early Victor Monarch Value

[randymullx]

A local antique store has this very early Monarch and they are asking $600. The tag says it is missing the crank and "counter weights" (so it needs governor springs and weights). The serial number is 588. I haven't been able to find much data on these earliest versions and while most references show a black horn with brass bell, the one photo I found of an early Monarch did show a horn that looked similar to the one on this unit. The reproducer has obviously been replaced and there is not way to determine if there are other issues with the motor.

Any opinions on the value will be greatly appreciated.

[jboger]

Looks like the reproducer is a Columbia long-throat. And some issues around the crank opening.

[phonogfp]

Well, that's a shame. The 88th Monarch built, and some "handyman" had to butcher it.

The good:

1) Very early production.
2) Original support and traveling arms.
3) Original all-brass Victor horn and elbow.

The bad:

4) Block of wood attached to cabinet with 4 screws. This suggests a re-motoring may have occurred. A Monarch this early should have a threaded spindle, but I can't tell from the photos if this one does. Verify that this machine has its original 2-mainspring Victor motor & turntable.
5) Possibly a reproduction Columbia/client sound box.
6) While the all brass Victor horn and elbow are desirable, they are not original to this machine. A Monarch this early would have had a leather elbow and smaller horn. That wouldn't bother me, but some folks want everything to be catalog-original. These upgrades are legitimate (probably done by the original owner), but not original to this particular machine.
7) Clumsy "polishing" of the dataplate and cabinet may be repairable, but check all sides for further damage not shown in photos.

There's enough there to be attractive, but if Mr. Fixit installed the wrong motor, restoration could be a long, arduous, and expensive process.

George P.

[Jerry B.]

"Original all-brass Victor horn and elbow."

How early was the brass elbow introduced? I imagined any early Victor would have a leather elbow and leather elbow type horn.

Thanks, Jerry

[phonogfp]

"Original all-brass Victor horn and elbow."

How early was the brass elbow introduced? I imagined any early Victor would have a leather elbow and leather elbow type horn.

Thanks, Jerry

Jerry,

I agree, and said the same in #6 above.

The 1902 Victor catalog shows all leather elbows, and the 1904 catalog shows threaded elbows, so I'm going to stick my neck out and estimate that the change occurred in 1903.

Below is the earliest known catalog description of the Victor Monarch, from 1901. Note the description of the horn, and its leather elbow.

George P.

[Phonolair]

It looks like the original motor is still in the machine.
If you look under the turn table in the picture the motor casting looks correct. And the governor shown is for a early Victor motor. Also to me it looks like it has a threaded spindle. It also has the early thin rim turn table.

Other than the other issues mentioned earlier, these earlier motors used a fiber gear that is often worn and damaged.

Make sure the brass horn is not split or has extra holes, they are not really repairable.

The reproducer end of the tonearm is missing it's hardware and the horn cradle is also missing.

Looks like it could be a interesting project.

Larry Crandell

[VanEpsFan1914]

I bet it could be saved.

[phonogfp]

I bet it could be saved.

There's no question it could be saved. It's all a matter of how much a buyer is willing to spend in time and money to do it. If this machine were local to me, I'd definitely buy it, but I have the capacity (and/or know of others who do) to restore this Monarch. For a beginner, this could be a daunting project.

It looks like the original motor is still in the machine.
If you look under the turn table in the picture the motor casting looks correct. And the governor shown is for a early Victor motor. Also to me it looks like it has a threaded spindle. It also has the early thin rim turn table.

I agree. The winding shaft is even pinned rather than threaded, but the presence of that God-awful block of wood screwed to the side of the cabinet calls for verification. Why? Why? WHY??? Oh well... Hopefully, Mr. Fixit didn't do something awful to the cabinet and then hide it under that block of wood. I'd remove the block to verify that before buying it.

Good luck to the buyer - -

George P.

[travisgreyfox]

The finish looks a little weird. Is that original? Maybe bad lighting?

[Skihawx]

Well, that's a shame. The 88th Monarch built, and some "handyman" had to butcher it.
5) Possibly a reproduction Columbia/client sound box.
.
George P.

I think the early machines started at 100 or 200. The first number at 501 was a later practice.