An education in Tungstone needles requested, please

[Tinkerbell]

My apologies for having to post another "green" question...

My phonograph came with quite a selection of different needles, (as well as quite a few which were found in the case below the horn). The standard steel needles I just threw out, but sorted out the unused or still servicable fibre needles.

What I also found were about a dozen Tungstone needles. As I know relatively nothing about these needles (other than their relative popularity), I was wondering how one discerns whether they are still servicable. Also, some are still the gold color, but others have a rather oxidized appearance to them. Does the color actually matter in terms of performance?

Thanks for the education... and again, sorry to those who must suffer yet another newcomer question.

[barnettrp21122]

If the tungsten tip or point protrudes from the shaft, and is not bent, it should be able to be used until it wears to the point where it starts to distort. After inserting it into the needle chuck collectors will often "shape" the point a bit by playing an unimportant disc first.
The cylindrical shape of the tungsten allows it to wear evenly throughout it's useful life, unlike a pointed steel needle, which becomes too blunt and damages the groove wall after one or two record sides.
Shaft color or ozidation shouldn't matter at all. Just be gentle in lowering the point to the record groove. Unworn pristine records will provide more sides before replacement is necessary, since the grooves haven't been roughened through normal wear.
The tone or volume of the tungs-tone needles is determined by size of the "dimple" in the shaft. (Sorry if this isn't the right term) Soft needles have larger, louder ones have less or none, if I recall correctly.
TungsTone needles are especially useful in the early VV 10-50 changers,and others, which call for a semi-permanent stylus in order to operate satisfactorily.

Bob

[Tinkerbell]

Thank you, Bob!

[JHolmesesq]

I have an old poster from Punch Magazine advertising the "latest tungstyle needles". Unfortunately it is in storage at the moment but if I remember correctly, it linked "Cleopatras Needle" with a record needle - both preserve things for longer (If you ask me their marketing pitch sucks).

Basically the idea was that it can be used many times over to play records and it reduces wear. When I get my poster out of storage I shall have to scan it.

[gramophoneshane]

Im not so sure about the reducing wear part
Whenever I've use them, I can wipe the record with a tissue & get just as much (or more) black dust than when I use a loud tone steel.
I think what you get is less "visible" wear, because the tungsten tip is sitting in the very bottom of the groove, so you dont see the wear as easily as you do where a steel needle has been wearing the sound undulations up the walls of the groove as well.
Without the walls to help support the point, it must be bearing down in the groove with more pressure per square inch too.
I have to admit I was a little disappointed with tungstone/tungstyle needles when I first tried them
The biggest disappointment was only getting ¼ of the amount of plays the advertising claimed they were capable of. I very seldom use them nowdays, unless it's to play a well worn disc that no other needle can get through lol. This reduces the amount of plays down to about 10 to 20 sides though.
I have one sitting in a spare 5b, in the re-entrant, and rather than change the needle I change the sound boxes over to eliminate the need to reshape the point again if you dont want to use them all the time. They're far too expensive over here to use 24/7 anyway...that is on the rare occasions they are even available.
I'll save most of mine for when I get my HMV Automatic 1 .

[Uncle Vanya]

Early Tungs-tone needles were gold plated (a thin coating to be sure), later needles were treated to "richen the color" in imitation of gold, and after 1927 or 1928 they were produced with an "Antique bronze" finish.

These needles can be absolute poison to soft "budget label" discs which used relatively little shellac binder. I once pretty well destroyed a new dead stock Radiex pressing with a new Tungs-tone stylus. They also wear Gennett, Champion, Grey Gull, Madison, Van Dyke, Federal Emerson Puritan (etc) discs very badly.

Best to save them for use with Victor records on an automatic machine, I should think.

[Tinkerbell]

All feedback and advice duly noted... Thank you to all who responded. Perhaps for now I will stick to my cache of regular and fibre needles.

[JHolmesesq]

I have to admit I was a little disappointed with tungstone/tungstyle needles when I first tried them
The biggest disappointment was only getting ¼ of the amount of plays the advertising claimed they were capable of.

Haha, did I mention that my other poster claims Columbia portables to be "The best gramophones in the world" Having never used these needles, I had only that to go on

[Henry]

What Uncle Vanya said. I found a number of Tungstone needles in my XI while cleaning it out after purchase. Some were obviously shot (tips bent over, worn down to a nub, etc.), others looked as if they might play. I picked out the best looking one and tried it (can't remember what record). Conclusion: worse sound than a fresh steel needle, unknown effect (damage?) on record. I have kept the Tungstones as curiosities, but the experience described above did not give me reason to change over from steel needles. YMMV.

[Valecnik]

All feedback and advice duly noted... Thank you to all who responded. Perhaps for now I will stick to my cache of regular and fibre needles.

Tink, just get an Edison and forget about those bothersome needles.