Playing Pathé Records with the Brunswick Ultona Reproducer

[EdiBrunsVic]

I recently purchased a Pathé stylus at the CAPS show from another collector. It did not look new, but appeared to be in good shape. I brought it home, put in in the proper holder, and tried a few Pathé discs. None played well...just skipped. I tried to play it according to the instructions listed in the Ultona booklet that describes how to use it. Is there something I have not done, or is it best to spend more money for a new stylus?

[transformingArt]

There are two types of Pathé Vertical discs (the earlier ones has 'Etched marks' instead of paper labels, and later ones has paper label with a Chicken trademark on it) and I don't know which type of Pathé record you have. I have only handful of them, but anyway, here's a simple answer for the whole matter - DO NOT Use Brunswick reproducer to any of Pathé discs! (Ignore what is written on Ultona Manuals)

Not only the reproducer would skip through the grooves, it would damage the record beyond repair, since the grooves on most of Pathé discs are extremely shallow, and yet the reproducer is really heavy (they are even harsh on playing Edison DDs - from my experience - even though they were designed to play them) so they would tear the whole thing down, literally.

I recommend you to play those Pathé discs on modern equipment. 0.0080" stylus are usually recommended for them, although I prefer to play them with a 0.0035" styli which is still fine.

[Tinkerbell]

DO NOT Use Brunswick reproducer to any of Pathé discs!

Really? Does this apply to all Brunswick reproducers with the Pathé head? I ask because I have the very first iteration of the Brunswick manufactured Pathé reproducer, which is a standalone/singular reproducer, as well as an earlier Ultona with both lateral and Pathé functions on one rotating head. They both use the sapphire ball.

Is there a particular concern about this... the weight of the triple head Ultona, perhaps? My singular Brunwsick/Pathé reproducer seems quite light by comparison to the Ultona. I'd like to understand better why using a reproducer specifically designed for Pathé vertical recording might be a problem.

[Uncle Vanya]

There are two types of Pathé Vertical discs (the earlier ones has 'Etched marks' instead of paper labels, and later ones has paper label with a Chicken trademark on it) and I don't know which type of Pathé record you have. I have only handful of them, but anyway, here's a simple answer for the whole matter - DO NOT Use Brunswick reproducer to any of Pathé discs! (Ignore what is written on Ultona Manuals)

Not only the reproducer would skip through the grooves, it would damage the record beyond repair, since the grooves on most of Pathé discs are extremely shallow, and yet the reproducer is really heavy (they are even harsh on playing Edison DDs - from my experience - even though they were designed to play them) so they would tear the whole thing down, literally.

I recommend you to play those Pathé discs on modern equipment. 0.0080" stylus are usually recommended for them, although I prefer to play them with a 0.0035" styli which is still fine.

HEAVY?

You've obviously not used am Actuelle, nor a Diffusor machine!

Pathé records play quite well on Brunswick machines, IF the machine is level and the tone arm moves freely.

I have a particular interest in Pathé and other sapphire ball records, own hundreds of them, and play them frequently. Eveything from Caruso's "E Lucavan Le Stelle on a center-start (transcribed form an AICC cylinder of 1903 vintage) to Gene Greene's "King of the Bungaloos, to Jim Europe's 365th Infantry Hell-Fighters playing "The Dancing Deacon", to Jack Norworth singing "I Want to Spread A Little Sunshine" play well and with negligible wear on Pathé, Actuell, and Brunswick machines which are properly set up, with good sapphires.

[OrthoSean]

I'd have to agree with Uncle Vanya. My Brunswick does well with most Pathé discs and most certainly doesn't chew them up. Same with the Actuelle I have, it's very gentle. The occasional disc will skip, but it's rare.

Sean

[Valecnik]

I have not had a brunswick for years but when I did, I was quite impressed by the nice sound it produced when playing Pathé and Edison discs. To me it sounded as good or better than an Edison machine playing the same disc, probably the result of that fairly large reproducer and wooden or fibre horn.

That being said, I did have issues with the Pathé discs skipping alot and I did worry about the weight of the reproducer being dragged across those grooves.

I also had a Diffusor. I don't recall it being that heavy. I really liked the sound but it was a huge machine. I had no space for it.

Question for TransformingArt: Can you play the center start Pathés on modern equipment? If so what do I need to do?

[transformingArt]

1.

About Brunswick Ultona and other machines mentioned on later replies; I didn't have a chance to use Pathé Diffusor or Paper-cone models, but surely, Ultona really disappointed me - I'm saying this because I had lots of unfortunate events while using that thing. I actually never got the Brunswick machine but got an Ultona reproducer which I used with my Victrolas, so it was my fault that caused those catastrophe. If my remarks about that reproducer sounded too harsh for some Brunswick fans, I apologize - but I have made it clear at first that I haven't dealt with many Pathés so far.

But I have to tell you one thing; I got much more satisfaction while using Modern equipments on Pathé discs.

2.

Question for TransformingArt: Can you play the center start Pathés on modern equipment? If so what do I need to do?

You need to have a Variable speed turntable which can go up to 100rpm. I don't have one, actually, but I developed my own computer software to correct the pitch. Since the grooves on Pathé discs are pretty shallow, you should put little bit of extra weight on the stylus, by putting a coin on top of it, or some other methods. Also, you need to make your cartridge sensitive to vertical modulation and not to lateral. My Numark turntable or (recently acquired) CosmoTechno turntable is very useful for playing Center start discs since the tone arm of those machines can go straight to the center without any problems.

[OrthoSean]

Playing Pathés electrically can be a challenge. I have an SP-15 Technics with a modification that allows it to be constantly variable speed, right up to 120 RPM. I love it. Even with added weight to the tonearm / cartridge, center starts especially can be a nightmare to get to track properly. I've got a 14 inch Galvany of the "Queen of the Night" aria that is nearly impossible to play electrically. It's mint and flat as can be. It's just such a LOUD recording the stylus wants to jump all over the place. The Actuelle does nicely with it, though. Never tried it on my Brunswick. Actually, I don't know if my machine can take the 14 inch discs. I've got an original Pathé adapter for early Victor horn machines that I really like using on my Victor V and Schoolhouse machines. It sounds great and I was happy to get it.

I wasn't the least bit offended by your comments! A properly adjusted Ultona will do very well with verticals (including Edisons) as long as everything is properly adjusted. Like Valecnik, I really like they way DDs sound on my machine. It's a much warmer sound than you get from a DD machine. I still love my C-19 and C-200 though!

Sean

[Valecnik]

I have quite a bunch of those large 14 inch center starts. I've never tried to play them electrically but I can tell you that on my Pathéphone model 12, some of those passages are loud enough to rattle the windows.

The problem is that it takes quite a powerful motor to play those big records, especially when the reproducer moves to the outside edge of the record as the spring is winding down. My no. 12 does not always have the "umph" to get all the way through, although probably it should have. It's a pain when you are really enjoying a record and it starts to slow down in the last 30 seconds of play.

The no. 12 I've posted previously but here it is again.

[hillndalefan]

My Pathé Modele D has a very heavy reproducer and doesn't damage the discs--one of the advantages of the large stylus that came with them.
What I DO know about the Ultona soundbox is that the tone arm telescopes and is pushed back, the Pathé stylus turned straight forward to play Pathé discs. For Edison and lateral discs, the tone arm is extended to its full length. There is also a sliding weight, that I believe is pulled forward for
the Pathé discs, and shoved back for the others. Having the machine level is of great importance for this to work without sending the soundbox skittering across the grooves [the large stylus keeps this from damaging the record as well in this situation].