Help needed with Victrola XI-A motor

[nostalgia]

I have since last autumn restored a Victrola XI-A, it was my first machine that I restored 100%, and I probably in total spent more than 40 hours on it in total. Two days ago I sold it, since I really had no room for it at home, and the buyer collected it and brought it home, in a horizontal position, something I not really favoured, but it was the only way to transport it for him. Before he collected it I had over many weeks tested it, and it run like a charm, no problems at all, it also run perfectly at 78 rpm.
( Since it was my first restoration I also opened a thread on the gramophone in June last year viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41997)

But back to present time. The buyer called me the same evening, and said he had problems. The turntable spins, but there is not enough power in the motor when the tonarm/needle is lowered to the record. I never had this problem when I tested it, and today I drove 100 km to his place to have a look. I could not really see what was wrong with the naked eye, and I removed the platter and will the next days try to find out what has happened. The first thing that comes to mind, is that maybe one of the spring has unhooked. BUT before starting to dissasemble the motor, I would like you to have a look at the governor pads. I never really understood the function of the small felt pad that is marked on my photo. Somehow it slows the speed, but what is really its function, since it only can be adjusted with a finger/tool moving the attaching knob, also highligted on the photo? The only reason I can understand it is there, is that the main felt pad directly adjusted by the speed indicator is not strong enough to hold the governor from spinning too fast ?

I am showing the governor parts, and the small spring inside the speed adjusting component. Do they look okay? When servicing the machine last autumn, I carefully cleaned it, and moved it back to the machine after service, and did not really pay too much attention to how it looked. When looking at the machine now, I just try to reason out if something has happened to this area of the machine, BEFORE opening the spring barrel, and check if one of the springs has lost it's position inside the barrel.

I am also attaching a few pics showing the machine, how it looked before it was sold. The machine had been held in a room with big temperature changes during the year before I got hold of it, but since this was the first machine restored, I decided to not strip it, but instead restore the finish with Howard Restor-a Finish after cleaning it thoroughly, and later on adding two layers of wax. I spent countless hours on the wood, but it probably still could have been better, but in my area it is impossible to get hold of wood care products particularly recommended for full wood restoration on Victrola machines like this, so I had to make the best out of it in my way. ...."I did it my way"..

[pallophotophone]

Hi,

If you can wind the springs until they just start to offer tension because they are fully wound, they are not disengaged. If it is disconnected or broken, you will likely hear a clunking sound as the end slips past the shaft or past the broken end. If the old grease wasn't replaced and has turned to whatever old grease becomes , then that could be the problem as the spring turns will not slip past each other as it unwinds which equals poor power and the possibility of the sprigs being broken.
Hopefully the new owner did not over-wind it. And it's vital to re-grease the mainsprings. Sometimes the old grease survives, more or less. But sometimes absolutely not.

The device you have pictured is the speed indicator, not the control. If you lift the friction shoe that is attached to the small coil spring, it should move with almost no pressure. But if the shaft that has the pointer that indicates the speed is stuck for whatever reason, it will inhibit the governor. But that will not give the motor poor power- it will just run consistently too slow.

I don't see anything that you have described that would cause the motor to be suddenly under powered just by transporting the machine on it's back. There's nothing in the motor that would be affected by that.

I presume you cleaned and re-lubricated all the bearings- especially the governor shaft bearings with the proper lightweight oil. If they weren't and new oil was added to the old oil, the bearings could be gummed up. Same for all the shafts for the spindle,speed indicator and sliding governor fly-ball shaft/ plate.

I once encountered someone that had oiled a gummed up governor assembly with something like alcohol, which evaporated and left the gummed up residue where only oil should have been.

Hope this helps!

[nostalgia]

Hi,
I should have mentioned that this machine has been disassembled to the last screw, and all components cleaned 100%, and reassembled greased and oiled, using the best grease possible. I meticulously followed detailed steps last autumn when servicing it, since it was my first major service, after initially servicing 3 HMV 59 motors. Since that time I have serviced close to 20 motors the last year, including HMV 4 spring motors, and never had any problem with these motors after the service, but now I have met a challenge, and of course with a Victrola motor, that I have only serviced once.
There are no clunking sound when I today tried to wind up the motor myself, this was the first thing I tested for when removing the motor board, and bringing it back home today. I even wounded it up 100% to put maximum pressure on it, to provoke a reaction, if something had happened inside the spring barrel, knowing that I this way would test the limits of the spring, something that I of course not would do or advice the new owner to do.
I can't say I understand completely this speed indicator after your explanation..., I need look at it more closely with magnyfing glass, trying to understand its function since it to me looks unrelated to the speed control brake pad. In total I don't recognize this extra brake pad, comparing it with the to me, more familiar, HMV 32 double spring motor which does not have this feature. It is moving without much pressure and can be lifted easily, but it obviously slows the governor a bit. The speed control, and the pointer etc is working like it should, it has also been cleaned and reassembled, and a stroboscope has been used to check the turntable spins at 78 rpm.
In total, all was working 100% before the car trip, and I now just can't understand what else can be causing the motor to lose its power, if the problem is not inside the main spring barrel.

[pallophotophone]

That covers a lot of ground and confirms the condition of the springs / winding train. I've maintained many Victor motors over the years.

The speed indicator works by the single movable arm, linkage and coil spring which maintains contact with the governor plate that also contacts the actual speed control lever.
The small coil spring maintains a very small amount of pressure on the arm/leather which contacts the governor plate and will not have any control of the speed of the motor. Or at least it ought not to.
Test it by lifting the movable lever/leather shoe with a toothpick or small screwdriver and it ought to move freely in both directions. It is about as simple as it can be once you see how it works. No insult intended. When you move the lever, watch the pointer which is under the celluloid window and make sure it moves freely. I promise- it's a very simple device once you see how it works! The shoe/lever contacts the governor plate which pivots through another lever and spring and that pivots through to another shaft which has the speed indicator pointer on it.

But then even if it didn't move freely, that does not explain why the motor runs out of power as it simply would not run at the correct speed.

If the governor shaft is not running true or is bound up for whatever reason- shock or vibration or ? - then that would explain it. But make sure that if you do work with the governor or remove it or it's bearings for any reason, be sure that the mainspring is fully unwound to avoid damage to you or the mechanism. Without question.


For my money, the governor area is the one area where the smallest amount of friction will have the greatest counterproductive effect if things go wrong.

Especially since it worked well for you for so long.

I guess if the driven worm,and spur gear on the mainspring were worn, that could do it too, but I never saw one that was so worn that it behaved that way.

One thing- After taking a close look at picture no.1 , it looks like the speed control lever is pressing against the speed indicator lever. If it is , it should not!

But it could be an optical illusion.

[nostalgia]

Thank you for trying to help me:)
I can not see that the governor parts are stuck in any way, I yesterday checked it all, and all parts are moving freely as they should, and there are no shocks or vibrations, in total the motor makes no hisses and strange sounds, and runs smootlhly, but after the trasnport...with less power.
I will use my best glasses and a magnifying glass to grasp this speed indicator, which is very movable in both directions when pulling the small metal knob attached to it. With the naked eye i admittedly cant see any connection between it and the speed control lever/needle, but I understand now there is a connection ( and that its function is not to put a constant pressure on the governor plate ), so I will scrutinize it today. The speed indicator works perfectly under its celluloid cover too, by the way and shows the changes in speed when this speed indicator is lifted from the governor plate. Also both levers work separately, and are not preventing the movement of the other.
And yes, I know the dangers of playing with stuck governor shafts, been there done that last year, when I first started to service smaller HMV motors. When released they run like crazy, ugh.
All gears are good too, in total..everything worked smoothlessly before the transport of this gramophone. The new owner is totally new to acoustic gramophones though, but I cant really understand what he possibly could have done wrong. It is also impossible to crank the machine in a wrong way too, since he then simply would have unscrewed the crank. He said his (adult) brother had fumbled a bit with the speed control, but really...it should not cause this problem when the speed control is repositioned back to 78 rpm.
I will look at it now, and if I still have a problem, I will even make a video, and upload to youtube, to possibly expose any problems that I don't see. I will even open the spring barrel today, if needed.
English is not my mother tongue, and when it comes to some glossary details concerning motors, I sometimes get trouble, but I think I have grasped your explanation of this speed indicator now.
Thanks again.

[soundgen]

The problem is that enormous spring on the spring indicator part it is completely over the top , and this is what is slowing the machine down , it is pressing the indicator pad onto the brass part very hard , why this didn't happen when you had the machine is a mystery , but you can easily test this by locking the pad away from the brass part and playing the machine without its contact

[nostalgia]

Soundgen, this is interesting information. Someone in past may have changed this spring. I would never dreamed about this, but felt it was a problem with one of the brake pads.
I took the main springs out, but they are both good and hook at its four access points.
I am in the middle of working now...I will prevent the speed indicator felt from touching the plate. I don't have the cabinet, it is 100 km away but want to test the motor without the speed indicator involved.
Can someone tell me what weight in grams I should put on a record to simulate the weight of the tonearm and the force of the needle?
If it runs well without the speed indicator I will simply adjust the speed with the speed control using a stroboscope and forget the indicator and it's spring for now. The most important thing is to get this thing up and running.

[pallophotophone]

I'd like to point out that the machine worked properly before it was transported. If it was the matter of the speed indicator tension spring bring too high, that would mean that it was replaced after the machine was sold. Was it ? I believe that the amount of force generated by those weights on the governor is more than sufficient to overcome that little spring.

If the the main springs are the original ones, I doubt very much that they'd go weak all of a sudden, without warning.

Glad that both speed control lever and speed control arms aren't as the picture illustrates. It is an optical illusion.

If you haven't already done it , please examine the governor and confirm that the ends of it are not damaged which is what could happen if the machine was dropped.

Don't worry too much about the tracking weight of the no.2 reproducer. That motor will have suffficient torque to make it work. Without doubt. I never had the reason to measure it, but it's probably in the neighborhood of 3-5 oz. Because I never had a reason to measure it, I never purchased a scale that could.

If your motor is operating correctly, it will not be at all under powered. One thing- is the soundbox at the proper angle- viewed from the diaphragm side- turned fully clockwise so the needle is at an angle? That probably wouldn't be enough to bog down the motor. No insult intended-

There are some things that I'd consider to be way too incredible to be considered. Like a smashed ball bearing underneath the spindle shaft or smashed ball bearing in either of the end bearings for the governor. But I can't say I've seen everything and there is almost always a first time for somethings.
If it were mine, I'd concentrate on the governor as any excessive friction in the operation of it will make the motor malfunction. Given the information you give and the fact that it was fine before it was transported.

[startgroove]

Not to sound like a wise guy, but does the buyer know that they must wind the motor more than just a few cranks?

[nostalgia]

I drove out 200 km yesterday to remove the motor board and bring it to my garage room. I cranked the machine up to its maximum when visiting him. I said he should never do this himself but I wanted test the springs, and they function all good.
I now have disabled the speed adjuster, waiting for someone to give advice on approximate weight to put on a record for simulating weight of tonearm and needle, to see if it now will run.
It would have been all easier with a spring problem that can be easily detected.