1901 $3.00 Victor Found - Need parts

[solophoneman]

I just acquired an incomplete 1901 hand driven Victor Toy Talking Machine. Even though it is missing the key parts, I couldn't really pass up this rarity. You can see a complete original at this site
http://www.intertique.com/VictorToyIDDemo.html

I have the Crank, original Oak base and complete Mechanical works and Turntable. I am missing the brace that connects from the base to the
Horn, the horn rest, The Horn and the reproducer. I realize that finding original parts for a Rare and seldom seen hand driven Victor like this is a long shot, but thought I would inquire just the same as who knows? miracles sometimes happen. Any help anyone can give me on this, or steer me in the right direction, is as always greatly appreciated. I would also be interested in seeing a digital of how the reproducer is connected. I assume it must have a typical elbow either leather or metal. I would imagine there are specialists out there who are able to fabricate the 10" tin Horn and the Horn support etc. in case original parts cannot be located. That would require access to the original parts of course in order to make precise repros.

[solophoneman]

Mr.Victor actually has one of these rare little 1901 Eldridge Johnson Victor Hand driven Toy Talking machines in absolutely pristine original condition, complete with the original Celluloid ID tag. It can be seen at this site http://www.mrvictor.com/ When you get there simply click on the Phonograph collection link in the upper left of the page and then click on Victor and you will see two photos of it. Truly remarkable that a 109 year old rarity such as this could be found in such remarkable condition.

[Jerry B.]

Congratulations on a remarkable find and good luck finding the parts to complete the project. It's well worth the effort. I would suggest Greg Cline for the transfer when you locate a suitable size of celluloid for the tag. Jerry Blais

[solophoneman]

Thanks Jerry, and I'll certainly keep Greg in mind when the time comes to complete the transfer.

[Sidewinder]

Could you maybe post a close up of the iron casting and a picture of the underside of the turntable, and underside of the wood base?

thanks

[solophoneman]

Sure, I will try to get those digitals on for you sometime on Thursday.

[solophoneman]

Here are the digitals requested by sidewinder. Just curious as to why you need these. Are you making some Duplicates ?

[Sidewinder]

This theme was discussed earlier this year as well

About 30 or 40 years ago a large batch of reproductions were made in Italy or Holland. They were almost indistinguishable from the originals, but for a few issues. If you have never been up close to an original, its not easy to tell. The main issue being the quality of the castings. I have seen more repro's than originals. The most obvious way to spot a reproduction is that the main casting is PAINTED BLACK. On the original machines the casting was bare. However the talent of the casters in 1900 meant that this was not a problem due to the quality of the casting. One could keep the price of the machine down as on kept production steps to a minimum. (however it could be that a restorer decides to paint a rusted casting......?)

If one strips off the black paint of the copy one will see that the casting is not as fine as that of 1900/1903.

It is quite disappointing that a collector or dealer would fake a desired item. (where there is money there are crooks) I would not be surprised that in 100 years crapophones will be handled as the real thing!

Below a photo of the bare casting how it should be

[antique1973]

[quote="Sidewinder"]This theme was discussed earlier this year as well

About 30 or 40 years ago a large batch of reproductions were made in Italy or Holland. They were almost indistinguishable from the originals, but for a few issues. If you have never been up close to an original, its not easy to tell. The main issue being the quality of the castings. I have seen more repro's than originals. The most obvious way to spot a reproduction is that the main casting is PAINTED BLACK. On the original machines the casting was bare. However the talent of the casters in 1900 meant that this was not a problem due to the quality of the casting. One could keep the price of the machine down as on kept production steps to a minimum. (however it could be that a restorer decides to paint a rusted casting......?)

If one strips off the black paint of the copy one will see that the casting is not as fine as that of 1900/1903.

It is quite disappointing that a collector or dealer would fake a desired item. (where there is money there are crooks) I would not be surprised that in 100 years crapophones will be handled as the real thing!

Below a photo of the bare casting how it should be




That's a problem with the earlier simple designs- they are easier to replicate. I certainly hope that is not the case here.

[solophoneman]

Wow, that is pretty incredible. So Italy and Holland were the the countries that produced the first Crapophones, albeit that these were of a higher quality and much more difficult to detect then their modern day counterparts. It would be interesting to see one of these complete Victor Toy Fakes, so you could see first hand how they produced the fake Horn and reproducer which were unique to the Victor Toy when it was produced in 1901. On the fake Toys from Holland and Italy, did they deliberately try to make certain areas of the machine look old? The reason I ask is that the existing rubber bumpers on the bottom of this machine were worn down and hardened to the point where one of them just crumbled off when I turned it. Also there are old holes where the ID Tag once was as well as split and some extra old holes where the support arm was once screwed in. If this one is a fake, I agree it would be very difficult to tell if you had not been familiar with what the casting looked like close up. Again, it would be interesting to see what a complete fake looks like. Does anyone out there have one by any chance and can post a photo? Seeing that there must obviously be more of the Fake Toys out there then Real ones, I am surprised I cannot find one on line anywhere. Can you describe any of the other subtle differences perhaps between an original or a fake, It would help immensely I am sure, for anyone who does not want to get taken. Regardless of how this turns out, it will be a neat item to restore and demonstrate. I do not have much money into this so I am proceeding with a low cost seat of the pants approach to having a working model to demonstrate.