I can buy this gramophone for ca. 500 euro. There is a small problem with the spring motor (is loud)
I like to be sure that I will get spare parts if need..
Could you help me identify this phonograph please ?
The good news: this is an old model, no crap-o-phone.
The bad news: It is is one of countless cheaply made open horn machines of German or Swiss manufacture of the 1910s or 20s. Of unknown maker it will be near impossible to get spare parts.
For 500 EUR you can expect a smoothly running motor without bucking, strong enough to pull through a 12" record after one winding. Otherwise deduct 150 EUR for restoration and a new spring (if you are lucky to find a matching one).
Interesting machine. I'm pretty sure it might be an early Thorens machine, although I must admit I've never seen that motor before. The tonearm, soundbox, horn, brake & speed control all appear to be Thorens components, although again, I've never seen a Thorens speed control with such a long rod below the motor board, and I dont recognise the back bracket, but Thorens did produce quite a few different back bracket designs.
Below are 2 pictures I scanned from a catalogue.
The first dates from 1910, and shows the same tonearm as yours.
The second dates from 1914, and shows a "similar" cabinet design & decorative applique, but the tonearm is the more familiar 2 piece gooseneck. Your machine may fall into the years between these two, but I'm guessing your machine may be a little earlier due to the motor design, which in many ways resembles a music box motor.
Hopefully someone with a little more knowledge of early Thorens machines can confirm if the motor is Thorens or not.
I've no idea what the "PWII" might stand for??
It's not a bad price in my opinion, considering a "brand name" machine will probably cost at least twice as much. It is an original authentic machine after all, although I dont think the bolts that hold the back bracket are original to the machine, & the horn has probably been repainted. Everything else looks good though.
Seller said that big sprocket (biggest) can be noisy at run, but this noise can be reduced when lubrified. After one one winding , machine play two sides 12" record.
A very nice machine to look at, but maybe not the best for play. Lubrication will help the motor but it will always be noisy- that is how cheap motors sound.
PW = Polyphon Werke & II is the motor model designation
This is what the Polyphon music box company did after music boxes
And if you look at ROMFI.com you will see all 1912 models. I think the one you ar looking at may be 1910. I'd agree that the bolts on the back bracket may not be correct, otherwise everything elsi is good. I think that the soundbox may be correct to the machine as well? So a better quality German machine!
As to the price...if the horn has its original paint, which could be the case - but its difficult to judge from the pictures, then 500 is a good price. If the horn is an obvious repaint, see if you can get the price reduced.
As for spare pieces - old motors are loud, but they rarely give too much problem. The biggest would be if the spring were to break, but replacement springs are not hard to find. As was mentioned above, propper lubrication can help reduce the noise - also when tha bottom is screwed back onto the case it is less noisy
Ah, I never thought about Polyphon. It should have "clicked" with that music box style motor.
It often amuses me what some collectors instantly write off as cheap & poor quality.
Companies like Polyphon & Thorens were making high quality music boxes long before most phonograph manufacturers even drempt of using clockwork mechanisms, so it's not like they had no experience.
I dont know about Polyphon, but I know Thorens did make some cheap motors, but they also made some extremely good quality motors too.
I also think it's a little odd to write off motors from Germany & Switzerland as cheap & noisy, when both countries had an outstanding reputation for clock & watch making. I doubt this motor is any worse noise wise, than the early Victor & Zonophone designs.
Sidewinder wrote:
PW = Polyphon Werke & II is the motor model designation
Congratulations, I think you are right!
In early 1898, Polyphon-Werke was offered the German "Grammophon" patents. After demonstration in a local hotel the director of Polyphon was quite dismissive about the "Grammophon" and declined the offer. A big mistake!
Swiss and German manufacturers (Paillard, Thorens, Polyphon, Lindström) sold hundreds of thousands of disc talking machines, forcing each other into a race to the cheapest make. To the advantage of classes of population who were until then excluded, and to the benefit of disc manufacturers.
gramophoneshane wrote:
I dont know about Polyphon, but I know Thorens did make some cheap motors, but they also made some extremely good quality motors too.
Yes, certainly. But while sales figures of high class machines, competing against the Gramophone Co., remained small, hundreds of thousands of cut-price machines with cheap motors flooded the European market. Hence you find much more of the latter - like the Polyphon in question.
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