Brunswick Panatrope 10-7 Springs

[AFPORTO]

Hi, please I need some help with the follow issue: I bought a Brunswick Panatrope 10-7 two years ago and the 2 springs motor never worked well, it didn’t have enough strength to even touch one side of a 10" record in addition to bumping and jerking during execution; so I decided to send the springs to a technician for cleaning and re-greasing; both springs were mounted clockwise and he kept it like that. I would like to know if the second spring (the one that is farthest from the crank) should not be mounted counterclockwise since I believe this is the problem of poor engine performance. If anyone has experience with this type of engine I appreciate the help. Attached are photos of the springs (before service) and a link to a video. Thank you.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qGJgqmNzjVRqz42J7

[JerryVan]

Really difficult to tell without a close examination of the motor construction. However, I do believe that both springs being C.W., (when viewed the way they are, from the center split in the case), is probably correct. I'm hoping those photos of the springs were taken before they were cleaned & greased?? Most likely, the issue is that the springs have weakened with age and need to be replaced. There are those here who can provide that service.

[AFPORTO]

Really difficult to tell without a close examination of the motor construction. However, I do believe that both springs being C.W., (when viewed the way they are, from the center split in the case), is probably correct. I'm hoping those photos of the springs were taken before they were cleaned & greased?? Most likely, the issue is that the springs have weakened with age and need to be replaced. There are those here who can provide that service.

Thanks JerryVan for your answer; yes the photo was taken before they are serviced and this is the way they were when I bought the phonograph. Did you see the video link with the complete motor functioning? I will post more photos tomorrow. My doubt is if the second one should be mounted counterclockwise since the barrels are placed facing each other, that is, against each other and in this case the position of the second spring changes. Please if you can see the video I will thank you: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qGJgqmNzjVRqz42J7

[JerryVan]

The springs are correct the way they're shown. In reality, one of the springs really IS wound CCW. You get confused because you're viewing one spring while looking at it towards the winding gear, while you're viewing the other spring while looking away from the winding gear. Imagine the two spring barrels bolted back together. Look at the assembly while facing the end with the winding gear, with your x-ray vision, looking through the spring barrel, the first spring will be viewed as being wound CCW, peering deeper, past the first spring, the second will be viewed as being wound CW.

Putting all that aside, you can plainly tell what direction the winding gear rotates. It rotates CCW. Grabbing the open spring barrel, rotate the gear CCW with your hand. You'll see that the spring will begin to wrap around the center shaft, as it should. You'll also note that the barrel itself also wants to turn CCW. That force, making it want to turn CCW, will then be transmitted to the second spring barrel, by virtue of being bolted to the first. As you did above, grab the second barrel and turn it CCW while holding the "motor side" gear still. Again, you'll see the spring begin to wrap around the center shaft, as it too should.

You mentioned elsewhere that you could only turn the crank 15 revolutions. What's stopping you from winding more? Does it hit a dead, hard stop? Or do you just feel resistance and think you shouldn't go further? Whatever the case, no motor will have enough power after only 15 turns.

I have watched your video. Nothing in it appears to be abnormal.

[AFPORTO]

The springs are correct the way they're shown. In reality, one of the springs really IS wound CCW. You get confused because you're viewing one spring while looking at it towards the winding gear, while you're viewing the other spring while looking away from the winding gear. Imagine the two spring barrels bolted back together. Look at the assembly while facing the end with the winding gear, with your x-ray vision, looking through the spring barrel, the first spring will be viewed as being wound CCW, peering deeper, past the first spring, the second will be viewed as being wound CW.

Putting all that aside, you can plainly tell what direction the winding gear rotates. It rotates CCW. Grabbing the open spring barrel, rotate the gear CCW with your hand. You'll see that the spring will begin to wrap around the center shaft, as it should. You'll also note that the barrel itself also wants to turn CCW. That force, making it want to turn CCW, will then be transmitted to the second spring barrel, by virtue of being bolted to the first. As you did above, grab the second barrel and turn it CCW while holding the "motor side" gear still. Again, you'll see the spring begin to wrap around the center shaft, as it too should.

You mentioned elsewhere that you could only turn the crank 15 revolutions. What's stopping you from winding more? Does it hit a dead, hard stop? Or do you just feel resistance and think you shouldn't go further? Whatever the case, no motor will have enough power after only 15 turns.

I have watched your video. Nothing in it appears to be abnormal.

Thank you Jerry for your reply. I appreciated. I am a doctor but I remember the lessons and physics classes well and I can only understand the second spring wraping and winding correctly over the center shaft if during the motor cranking the second spring is being wounded from the outermost end that is attached to the inner face of the barrel. I imagine that the first spring is wounded by the winding gear starting from the center of the spring and the second one by the counterclockwise movement of the whole system and the barrel to which the far end of the second spring is attached. Am I correct in my hypothesis? I would like you to confirm that. Thank you so much.

[JerryVan]

"I imagine that the first spring is wounded by the winding gear starting from the center of the spring and the second one by the counterclockwise movement of the whole system and the barrel to which the far end of the second spring is attached. Am I correct in my hypothesis? I would like you to confirm that."

You have that correct.

[Inigo]

These are mounted correctly. No worries. After they've been cleaned and regreased, you can go to full wind. If the springs are original, though, one could break, but if they have been extracted and assembled back with no problems, then they will go right for many years.

[AFPORTO]

These are mounted correctly. No worries. After they've been cleaned and regreased, you can go to full wind. If the springs are original, though, one could break, but if they have been extracted and assembled back with no problems, then they will go right for many years.

Thank you (Muchas Gracias) Inigo !

They are re-assembled recently. The only problem is that during the execution of the record there are bumps and jumps; maybe something that should be adjusted on the central shaft so that there is no slack; maybe some type of washer has to be placed at some point.

I appreciate your comment and kindness. Thanks

[JerryVan]

These are mounted correctly. No worries. After they've been cleaned and regreased, you can go to full wind. If the springs are original, though, one could break, but if they have been extracted and assembled back with no problems, then they will go right for many years.

Thank you (Muchas Gracias) Inigo !

They are re-assembled recently. The only problem is that during the execution of the record there are bumps and jumps; maybe something that should be adjusted on the central shaft so that there is no slack; maybe some type of washer has to be placed at some point.

I appreciate your comment and kindness. Thanks

If they've been cleaned and lubed properly, there should be no bumps & jumps. Have you been able to wind the motor more than the 15 turns you mentioned?

[Inigo]

I've noticed those occasional thumps in reassembled barrels using all or part of the original springs. I believe it's a matter of the old springs. Although you've cleaned them thoroughly, and then regreased, their hardened steel surfaces have lost that prime touch they had when new, and somehow they're not sliding properly now, the surface being old, scratched, and prone to grease adherence... I must say this happens with my hmv194 (four spring motor) which has a mixture of new and old springs. But it happened during a time (long) after the last reassembling. Ultimately she's behaving very well. Maybe time and use are favourable for good grease spreading, also oozing out the excess, who knows! With that motor, I never seemed to find a good grease. I don't remember what I used last time... I remember a time when it thumped at the middle of the first spring... Then I was using a mixture of lithium grease and graphite flake. I don't remember if I changed to Molykote at a given point out not... But it has abandoned the thumping. These later year I've used this machine only occasionally, due to home organisation issues. And now, every time I wind it fully and then play some records, it doesn't thump! A mystery...
Finally, my advice is to be patient. Maybe the thumping will cure alone with use. Use the machine and note if the thumping is there after some time, or if it is decreasing. And have luck not to break a spring in the meanwhile!