Diamond Disc speed setting record-what pitch?

[coyote]

While cataloging DDs today, I came across the constant-tone record used to set the speed at 80 RPM. While I use a laser tachometer or my ear to adjust the speed, I'd still like to know what the correct pitch of this record is. I remember reading it somewhere but can't find it...anyone? Thanks.

Oops--found it in the DD service manual that David graciously posted a while back. Apparently the tuning Re-Creation note is "A."

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ?f=2&t=476

[De Soto Frank]

A comment from my days as a novice piano tuner / collector of old band instruments...

The "standard of pitch" has been a floating "standard" for centuries, depending on geographic region / musical tastes...

The present "standard of pitch" ( A above middle C = 440hz ) was not officially recognized until 1939 or 1940.

Prior to that, "A" was usually fixed at 435hz, often known as "Low Pitch" or LP.

This was to distinguish wind / other fixed-pitch instruments from the "High-Pitch" variety of the late 19th / early 20th century, where "A" = 456hz.

This fad is usually attributed to the French, looking for a "brighter" sound from their bands and orchestras. "High-Pitch" instruments were generally abandoned by WW I; they still turn up in attics, antique shops, etc.

Going back further, in Mozart and Bach's times, the standard of pitch was usually lower, with "A" hovering somewhere around 415hz. This would vary from country to country, or region to region.

This "floating" pitch standard still exists; there are rumors of Italian orchestras starting to push tuning above 440hz, and I personally had an experience several years ago when a Tango show played my performing arts center, and well had to pull the house piano up to A=442hz , to match the four Bandoneons that were in the tango orchestra...


So, all that said, if you're going to try to set the speed of a DD player to the "A" on a demo record, it was probably for the A=435hz "Low Pitch". Setting your machine to present A=440hz would probably have it running a tad fast.

I use a 78 rpm stroboscopic disc and set it just fast enough that lines begin to "walk" slowly ( in whichever direction "faster" is).

Either that, or I slip a bit of paper under the edge of the disc and count revs / minute...

Has anyone ever made-up an 80 RPM strobe disc ?

[Valecnik]

One of these records just sold on eBAY with the original jacket and instructions. I saved the copy of the instructions but they are a BMP file and won't upload here. If somebody knows how to convert and post a bmp, I can sent the picture of the instructions to your email address.

The pitch is called "A International" in the instructions.

[Edisone]

Pianos in America were often tuned to A440 by The Teens, but the Edison people could have been using anything. My playerpiano has a factory notation that it was tuned to A435 when built in 1917 - but if I don't use A440, it would never be in tune with any modern music. If you have the Edison disc, you can determine the frequency by simply setting your machine to 80rpm. Here's a page with 80rpm strobe disc: http://www.shellac.org/wams/wstrobe1.html ... or you can put on a record & count the revolutions, as I have always done.

And the instructions for the 'tuning' disc:

EDISON TUNING RE-CREATION. A - INTERNATIONAL PITCH. This RE-CREATION is used in tuning the New Edison to the pitch at which all RE-CREATIONS are recorded.

If the pitch of a phonograph is correct, the speed developed by the mechanism is also correct. In other words, International Pitch equals 80 revolutions per minute.

Use this RE-CREATION in conjunction with an International A Pitch-Pipe. Adjust the speed of the New Edison mechanism to the point at which this RE-CREATION sounds the same as the tone of the Pitch-Pipe.

THOMAS A. EDISON, INC.,
ORANGE, N. J.

[De Soto Frank]

I would bet a fresh, hot Krispy-Kreme do-nut, that your Edison "Tuning Re-Creation", revolved at 80 rpm will sound at A=435hz.


I have some encountered some old pianos that can be pulled to 440 and are happy, and others that would not "stay " at 440, but were quite stable at 435...

I usually kept my own Steiff upright player at 440.

Thanks for the link to the 80 RPM strobe disc !

[Lenoirstreetguy]

Oh oh! We're wading into the vexed issue of historical pitch. Let me say, speaking as a professional tuner-technician that certainly by 1905 A=440 was the most common pitch standard in North America. Steinway, in fact used 440 for the purposes of piano scaling and tuning from the time they became acquainted with the work of the eminent German physicist Hermann von Helmholtz, that is to say the late 1870's. It was Helmholtz who felt that the French were off base when they established A=435 which was known then as International Pitch...or French pitch. He writes extensively about this in his magnificent opus On the Sensations of Tone ( I'm using the 1885 edition as my reference.) French pitch being termed " International" throws a lot of writers off the trail because as we have noted International Pitch was standardized at A=440 in 1939. That and the fact that a certain number of turn of the century American pianos have A=435 emblazoned on their corpus. This was,I feel, to alert the tuner NOT to use his usual 440 fork. I have in fact never found an antique 435 fork, but I certainly have found a significant number of 440 ones. I have a set from 1900 that is firmly rooted at 440. This is not to say they weren't common in 1900, but by the same token so were those at A 440. Didn't I quote on this Board ( maybe it was the old one) the amusing story from Andre Benoist's memoirs. ( good Edison artist, he ) Wherein he outlines the trials of touring with Lillian Nordica in 1905 and the frenzies that she went through to ensure the piano was tuned to A 435! The fact that she had to stipulate that fact in her contract and sent poor Ben to check EVERY piano speaks volumes about pitch use: namely by 1905 440 was the usual standard.
But I would love to hear a copy of the Pitch record. I would love to know which pitch TA Edison Inc used!

Jim Tennyson

[De Soto Frank]

"But I would love to hear a copy of the Pitch record. I would love to know which pitch TA Edison Inc used! "

You mean Tom Edison, the functionally deaf guy ?

All kidding aside, I too would like to hear the Tuning Re-Creation played at correct speed and see what "the bunch at Orange" used for a standard of pitch.

[coyote]

Thanks for all the pitch info! I'll attempt sometime soon to record the tuning record. I think perhaps miniDV would be best, as I swear I can hear a SLIGHT difference when playing back recorded audio on my MiniDisc recorder, even though you'd think the speed would be accurate. Stay tuned...

[coyote]

OK, I finally got around to recording the tuning record. The wow is quite evident with a constant pitch, which is why I tried a second machine, but it was about the same. I calibrated both machines to as close to 80 RPM as I could with a laser tachometer while playing the record. I also blew A 440 on a modern (Kratt) pitch pipe while the record is playing. So, those with pitch-perfect hearing, what's the verdict?

http://www.pghcoyote.com/tuningshort.mpg

My apologies for the file size, I guess I could have dumbed it down a bit more. If you'd like me to try to re-edit this in a different way, or blow a different note on the pipe for comparison, so state.

[barnettrp21122]

Thanks for posting. The record sounds a tad flat to your pitch pipe, IMO.
I noticed the second video with the Schubert Edisonic! I hope you were just lucky in having the pitch being as accurate as it is. I worked for a long time trying to set the governor on mine-there's no speed adjustment knob on top, and if there's a specialized tool for adjusting underneath, I don't have it!
Bob