Edison Cygnet cranes

[ColoradoPhonograf]

I have a basic question about cygnet cranes on Standards/Firesides/Triumphs. I have heard from fellow collectors that different length cranes were used varying on applications. For instance a cygnet crane on a Standard with a 45 degree carriage would use a longer crane than a top mount 90 degree carriage on a Triumph. I'm wondering if the different cabinet sizes and carriage combinations would make a difference on the crane lengths? Did Edison make different length cranes for different applications? If so, is the length longer or shorter on the lower section or the upper section on originals? Have any of you found variances in original applications? Thanks for any input on this topic.

ColoradoPhonograf

[Valecnik]

Coloradophono, great question. The wrong crane combination is the reason you see so many horns hangning cockeyed, pointing down or not projecting direcly forward from the bell.

I don't have all the answers but here's what I've observed. Hopefully others can add/correct. I'd like to have more information myself on exact dimentions and bends.

There are three "basic" types of cranes, the basic types varying then also by model:

1) The earliest with bolt suspention and front mount carriage - The bottom half of the crane has a shallow bend of ~20 degrees back away from the machine and then up. The top half protrudes way forward to hang above the reproducer. The end, where the rod hooks into the slot is almost horizontal. I think the top halves were probably interchangeable between machines and horn types, 10 panel, 11 panel, music master, with all the necessary adjustment being made in the height and shape of the lower half.

2) Spring suspended cygnet with front mount carriage. - Again I think the top halves "might" have been interchangeable between models and horn types, 10 panel, 11 panel, music master, . I think the bottom halves "might" be interchangeable with the bottom halves of 1) above. The top half of these cranes project way forward to hang above the reproducer but the end, where the spring hooks into the slot is almost vertical to the machine, extending up a couple inches or more to accomodate the adjusting rod and the spring.

3) Spring suspended cygnet with top mount carriage. - New type of top half, less forward bend. Again I think the top halves "might" have been interchangeable between models with top carriage and horn types, 10 panel, 11 panel, music master. The bottom halves needed to be taller and had to have a deeper bend, back away from the machine. The end, where the spring hooks into the slot is almost vertical to the machine, extending up a couple inches or more to accomodate the adjusting rod and the spring.

I hope to hear more on this

[phonogfp]

My observations have been that - aside from the first rigid suspension cygnet cranes - the top sections are all the same geometry.

The bottom sections for a "Triumph" are a bit taller - - perhaps an inch and a half or so. There are two "step back" geometries as well for the bottoms. The one with a deeper "step back" is meant for the overhead carriages. The shallower "step back" is meant for earlier 45-degree carriages.

George P.

[gramophoneshane]

Here in Australia, we never got the 10 panel cygnet horn. Everything was supplied with an 11 panel cygnet.
I've got a Model B Standard with the original 45% carriage, and an 11 panel cygnet.
I intend on getting a repro crane, but I'm a little concerned about which type to order.
Do I need a larger crane as used on a Home with 45% carriage and 11 panel cygnet for example, or do I still need a normal "Standard" crane for a 10 panel, but adjust the suspension spring and rod to suit the larger horn?

[phonogfp]

Here in Australia, we never got the 10 panel cygnet horn. Everything was supplied with an 11 panel cygnet.
I've got a Model B Standard with the original 45% carriage, and an 11 panel cygnet.
I intend on getting a repro crane, but I'm a little concerned about which type to order.
Do I need a larger crane as used on a Home with 45% carriage and 11 panel cygnet for example, or do I still need a normal "Standard" crane for a 10 panel, but adjust the suspension spring and rod to suit the larger horn?

As far as I know, there's no difference between the cygnet cranes intended for a "Standard" or a "Home." I believe the crane adjustment screw will compensate for the 11-panel cygnet, so simply order a crane for a 45-degree carriage and you should be all set.

George P.

[gramophoneshane]

Thanks heaps George. I really wasn't sure which way to go, and I thought if I order from Wyatt's or APSCO & mentioned a Standard & 11 panel horn, they'd either be totally confused or think I was mad
At the moment I'm using a homemade crane, which does the job but looks revolting.
Thanks again!

[Lenoirstreetguy]

Here's a little "Cygnetiana" from the Edison Phonograph Monthly of April 1911. It involves the cranes necessary in order to use a Model O reproducer. From the part numbers you can see what bits were identical and which were different but the point is they maintained that an entirely new crane was necessary with a horizontal reproducer, which would double the types of Cygnet cranes one might find, no?
The second scan is from August 1910. Just to complicate the crane equipment, you can see that when you upgraded to a Music Master horn you again had to upgrade your crane and suspension spring in order to take the weight.

Jim

[Valecnik]

It IS complicated.

The test for me has always been simpy; does the horn sit perpendicular to the machine, (as if it as hanging loose) and still directly above the reproducer?

I also find it interesting to note that in the second advert, they were still offering new Standards, Homes & Triumphs, TWO MINUTE ONLY, with Music Master horns, $5 cheaper than a combination machine configured in the same way.

[ColoradoPhonograf]

Thank you everyone for your observations, information and direct Edison archived catalogs. I have always wondered about the differences involved and what was needed for proper set ups on these machines. I have tried different scenarios with cranes on each of these machines and have tried many combinations to see what is right for different set-ups.

Thank you for your inputs and knowledge.

One thing I have observed is that there were two different cygnet back brackets that were bolted to the case of the machines. At one time I had two different original brackets each with the same part number cast into the part but they were about ⅜" - ½" different in widths of the bolt pattern. I have since wondered if there were variances in heights of the cranes themselves.

Thanks for the time involved to reply to this question.

ColoradoPhonograf

[USlakeside]

Changing the subject a little...

Is it wrong to install a cygnet crane on a machine that didnt have one originally but could have? Say you find a home or standard and want to upgrade. Is it considered OK to drill the case?