Why early records had 'Moiré'/raised-rims' on the surface?

[transformingArt]

For number of times, I have seen lots of early records (mostly pre-1905 G&Ts and Columbias) which have some strange 'Moiré' patterns on the groove area. Maybe some of you might saw these patterns on all of Pablo de Sarasate 1904 recordings, as well as on some Tamagno's 10-inch recordings, or April 1902 Caruso sessions. I don't believe that these are not the pressing errors, since they are also visible on later pressings as well.

Anybody knows the reason why this happened? I have heard numerous suggestions about the matter from other collectors I have met, but none of them wern't satisfying at all. One guy believed that these patterns are the result of transcription from cylinders, on which the original recordings were supposedly made. But I'm 100 percent sure that this is far from the fact. In fact, None of the Pathé discs I have seen never showed any Moiré. Another guy suggested that this is the result of the faulty recording lathe which had a 'WOW' flutter. While it is true that Sarasate recordings has some noticeable flutter (at least that's what I felt when hearing those recordings on Pearl transfer, my copies didn't have that problem, so who knows?), it is not a good explanation on Tamagnos and Carusos, which has pretty consistent speed.

Also, I wonder if anyone knows why early records had so-called "Raised-rim". I thought they were some device to prevent damages caused by tracking errors of early crude soundboxes, but it seems they are not doing good on that matter at all!

So I hope that anyone in here can solve my long-time mystery about this subject.

[gramophoneshane]

I thought the raised rim was to prevent the needle falling off the record, and was designed to protect the recorded areas rubbing together when records were stacked??
I've got no idea what these moire patterns are though I dont think I've ever seen them, and I doubt they even knew what tracking error was in those early days..

[Swing Band Heaven]

I'm not sure what you mean either - a photo might help if thats possible to do and show what you mean. Although I accept that taking photos of record grooves to show subtle variations might not be possible Perhaps you could describe what it is.

I have notices on early columbia pressings particularly that in the dead wax area both before and after the grooved areas there are distinct faint groove markings going all the way up to the label - is this what you mean? If so I have no idea why they are there - only that the wax master cant have been completely smooth? On later disks these areas are completely smooth.

S-B-H

[transformingArt]

What I meant 'Moire' was something like this....The Sarasate records would be a perfect example for showing, but I can't locate it right now - so I'll show you one poor quality photo of Sarasate record I took from a website and a Tamagno record (which is less revealing).

[Wolfe]

I don't believe that these are not the pressing errors, since they are also visible on later pressings as well.

it is not a good explanation on Tamagnos and Carusos, which has pretty consistent speed.

It would seem to me like an artifact of the plating process. Doesn't effect sound, I think. E.g. the '02 Caruso's and the Tamagnos are quite good recordings for their time.

Also, I wonder if anyone knows why early records had so-called "Raised-rim". I thought they were some device to prevent damages caused by tracking errors of early crude soundboxes, but it seems they are not doing good on that matter at all!

A raised rim would provide no benefit, except in a changer or jukebox, to keep the record surfaces from rubbing together. Tracking error would not be affected at all. Those early soundboxes that were coupled directly to the horn also had the strike of far too much pressure bearing down on the record. Many early 1900's records have greyed grooves as a result, unfortunately.

[Kirkwood]

I have wondered about this raised-rim question a long time. As an example (which is packed away in storage just now, so no pics, sorry) I have a Vox recording from the "Vox Schallplaten u. Sprechmaschinen" company. Seems to date to the early-ish 1920s. This has almost the entire outer rim raised above the record surface, such that the needle drops into the first groove just a second or two before the music starts. No gentle nudge into that first groove needed! The same disc has a run-out groove at the end that is quite abrupt, and zips the needle into that final groove around the label. At first blush, it would look like it was designed for the auto-changer market, except that---despite the modernistic-looking label----it seems rather early for that. It's an acoustic recording of a band/orchestra performing a rather curious version of a dance tune "Brown Eyes". Maybe the raised rim----in this case----was to preclude stacked records from abrading each others grooves. As such it's a rather neat idea and design.

On the other hand, I have no idea what could cause that Moiré look to the record grooves---it seems just too consistent an effect to blame the dynamics of the recording itself. I'd like to know whatever the pro's can deduce to explain that---very neat to see it.

[Starkton]

Below is a cut of Caruso's first recording in Milan. I see no distinctive features apart from light greying which is responsible for color variations in the grooves.

[Wolfe]

Below is a cut of Caruso's first recording in Milan. I see no distinctive features apart from light greying which is responsible for color variations in the grooves.

That made me think of something I read here...


http://www.mainspringpress.com/caruso_interview.html

Specifically regarding Gramo 52378 (down the page aways.)


"The first ten Caruso records (recorded in Milan in April 1902) were selling so well that G&T figured out a solution to their problem: it appears they pressed the now-worn stampers into wax and made a fresh impression of each of them. From the new impressions, the company made a new stamper."

[gregbogantz]

The moire pattern is occasionally seen in discs of all vintages. It is usually the result of the tempo of the music being a nearly exact multiple or submultiple of the rotational speed of the record. That is, when X number of musical beats takes place during one complete revolution of the record. Particularly when there is a constant rhythmic percussion, the short wavelengths can group together in adjacent grooves which makes them become quite noticeable when visually inspected. In most records, this grouping does not occur since the musical tempo is not correlated with the rotational speed of the record and the repetitive waveforms occur randomly scattered around the record.

The raised rim of some records has, in my experience, mostly been seen on very old records, most of which are single-sided. I think it was simply an aid to keep the needle from falling off the edge of the record. This would have been particularly useful for inside-start records to keep the needle on the disc after the selection ended.

[transformingArt]

Below is a cut of Caruso's first recording in Milan. I see no distinctive features apart from light greying which is responsible for color variations in the grooves.

That made me think of something I read here...


http://www.mainspringpress.com/caruso_interview.html

Specifically regarding Gramo 52378 (down the page aways.)


"The first ten Caruso records (recorded in Milan in April 1902) were selling so well that G&T figured out a solution to their problem: it appears they pressed the now-worn stampers into wax and made a fresh impression of each of them. From the new impressions, the company made a new stamper."

I know how they 'remastered' the stampers using this crude skills - there's a good article on Historic Masters website regarding about Adelina Patti reissues they pressed some time ago. As far as I know, this skill was used until around 1905 or little bit later.

By the way, anyone knows what kind of techniques they used to make a "S/8" Victor Red Seals? John Bolig and Ted Fagan explained that that is a symbol for masters made with some dubbing process. but so far, most of the S/8s were not that inferior to that of originals, and I'm sure they are not electrically dubbed.