Pathé phonograph and records

[icemandan01]

hello to all this would be my first post here and i am looking for some help on a Pathé phonograph i want to buy. i do not know the model # as i have not seen the mach. in person. it is a cabinet style machine appearently from france. it has a straight tone arm and a forward facing reproducer and looks alot like my edison c-150 and is in pretty rough shape. in the picture of the phonograph there is standard lateral cut record on it. i asked the owner if this was only record for the machine they said yes and it works too? question(1) will a saphire stylus actually track in the groove of a lateral cut record and produce something that sounds like music. question(2) how much damage would this do to the stylus. question (3) is there any tell tale signs that a saphire stylus is damaged or needs replacing i have a stack of Pathé double sided records from france they are not actuelle needle cut. would it be safe to presume these are vertical cut discs and would be acceptable to test on this machine. these discs are in excellent near mint condition so i do not want to chance damaging them. i also have a stack of edison D.D.s in not so great condition. would it be better to test with these discs. thank you in advance dan

[De Soto Frank]

Kind of tough to ID w/o a picture.

I just went down-cellar and looked at my Pathé "Pathéphone" model VII, which is an upright, internal horn machine, that from a distance looks a lot like my Edison S-19 Sheraton Diamond-Disc player. (Cabinet might have been made by the same cabinet jobber ?)

The serial / data plate is a rectangular brass plate, tacked to the motor-board, to the right of the tone-arm mounting as you face the machine.

My machine was made by Pathé Frères, New York.

The look where the reproducer attaches to the tone-arm: if there is a thumbscrew on the little elbow, this will allow the reproducer to rotate about 45 degrees, allowing the machine to play both Pathé vertical-cut and common lateral-cut (Victor) records.

When the reproducer diaphragm is vertical, facing directly outwards, it is in position to play Pathé records.

When the reproducer is rotated clockwise, so that the diaphragm is facing downwards, at an angle to the motoboard, this is the setting for lateral cut records ( Victor, Colulmbia, etc.).

I would not use the Pathé saphire to play anything but Pathé vertical-cut records ( which play from the center outwards). A combination Pathéphone reproducer will accept regular steel needles for playing lateral-cut records.

Don't know about trying to play Diamond Discs on the Pathéphone; Pathé saphires run about $50 each, so I wouldn't risk damaging a good one.

If ths machine will play lateral-cut records, then the repriducer "works", and it is capable of playing Pathé verticals with the correct stylus.

My own machine was given to me by a friend; the motor was in pieces, and the cabinet is missing most of its "Beaux-Arts" appliques. I got the motor back together, and had Wyatt's install new springs on the governor assembly, but the motor (Heinemann) never ran evenly or strong, so I kind of abandonded it.

If you're looking for "one machine to play all disc records", a Brunswick with an Ultona 3-way reproducer is probably a better choice...

[gramophoneshane]

1. Yes, you'd get sound from a lateral disc played with a vertical reproducer, but it would be very muddy sounding.
2. The stylus will most likely be ruined. Pathé discs contained no abrasives like ordinary 78s because they weren't designed to wear & shape a steel needle to fit the groove. A sapphire ball stylus that has been exposed to these abrasives will have been damaged- probably after even one play.
3. The only ways I know to check a Pathé sapphire is to either examine it under strong magnification and look for flat spots or other damage, or to actually play a record and visually check for groove damage &/or black dust on the record surface after playing. I'm not sure whether you can check these in the same way as diamond discs- by looking for lines when the needle is lowered in the run out area, as I've never tried, but someone else might know for sure.
As for your French Pathé records, I presume these are either etched labels, or paper labels that resemble the earlier etched labels? These are definately vertical cut, but I'm not sure whether they used another label during the 20s on their vertical discs, like their American counterparts.
French Pathé were however producing lateral cut discs too during the 20s and 30's which used the label pictured below. The ones I have are either blue, purple or red, but other colours may have been produced too.
As far as I'm aware, all French Pathés are centre start, and all American Pathés are outside start, but all my US Pathé discs are from the mid to late 20s, so I dont know for sure if America ever produced centre start discs early in production, but I would presume that any French Pathé that was outside start would be laterally cut.
I cant say I remember ever seen a French Pathé machine in the regular upright style cabinet either. All the examples I've come across with internal horns were either table models or oversized boxy affairs, often with an external horn built into the cabinet. There is a lot I haven't seen though, & you would think at some stage they would have produced regular upright machines??
The uprights I've come across have all been American though.


Welcome to the board!

[De Soto Frank]

I have only two or three vertical Pathé records, probably mid to late 1920's ?

They are 12", paper label, and I believe feature the Ackroyd Trio (?) (Violin-Cello-Piano?) with some classical offerings. (I 've never played them, as I do not have a sapphire for my Pathéphone. Not even sure where they are stored right now.

I do remember that my Pathé vertical cut records have a different "sheen" to the playing surface than do regular lateral-cut discs; the same thing with Edison Diamond-Discs... so if all else fails, visual inspection and comparison against a Diamond-Disc and Lateral disc might help determine which Format a Pathé disc is in.

I have one Pathé "Actuelle" "needle-cut 10" dance record; it has a paper label, black with gold lettering.

Good luck with yours, will try to grab some pics of mine and post...

DeSoto Frank

[gramophoneshane]

After looking around online, it appears that FR Pathé introduced a label very similar to the one used in USA, in 1916, and these went through various design and colour changes. They also were made at a standard speed of 80rpm from 1916 on (instead of the earlier 90-120rpm range) and were outside start.
The speed was further reduced to 78rpm in 1926 on the 400,000 matrix series.
Their lateral cut discs appear to have been released when they stopped producing vertical recordings in 1932, although I haven't found comfirmation (yet) as to whether the change-over was gradual or immediate .

Edit: I managed to find a French Lateral cut disc catalogue for 1930, so they were producing both formats for at least a couple years.
Apparently they also introduced electrical recording during 1925.

[Brad]

I have read that Pathé' imported their hardware into the US and assembled machines with US built cabinets. I have never seen any detailed information that specified which machines were US built vs. French built. Perhaps others on the board may have specifics.

Welcome to the board, be sure an post pictures when you get your machine.

[De Soto Frank]

"and looks a lot like my edison c-150 "

I just Googled "Edison C-150" , and indeed the cabinet it very similar to my own Pathéphone VII and my Edison S-19, the big distinction being that the C-150 has a drop-front access to the record storage, whereas the S-19 and Pathéphone have conventional side-hinged doors.

[Wolfe]

Their lateral cut discs appear to have been released when they stopped producing vertical recordings in 1932, although I haven't found comfirmation (yet) as to whether the change-over was gradual or immediate .

Edit: I managed to find a French Lateral cut disc catalogue for 1930, so they were producing both formats for at least a couple years.
Apparently they also introduced electrical recording during 1925.

Vertical cut (French Pathé) until 1932! That's interesting, I had assumed vertical finally went out the door with the end of Edison's Diamond Discs (as far as commercial phonograph records.)

The first 'Needle Cut' Actuelle records were introduced in 1920. I think one can tell by looking closely at the wide, shallow grooves of a vertical sapphire ball disc, but simply looking at the label for the needle cut appellation, is pretty good for sussing out the vertical from lateral discs.

[Ole Canal Antiques]

I have a few Pathé reproducers around here some where... sorry i am of no help but it's hard to tell which model without pics...

[icemandan01]

hello to all and a great big thank you to those who have shared their wisdom with me. i have only seen a picture of the phono.. i am going to look at it on saturday and wanted to arm myself with enough knowledge to make an honest offer. as they are asking too much for the phono and in the ad they state that the phono is from the 1800s. so i have to break the news to them that Pathé did not start pressing discs till around 1909. so i doubt they were making disc machines before they made discs.as i stated before it kinda looks like my edison c-150 in respect to the design on the front between the horn and lid with the big difference in the cabinet being this one has a side hinged door and about 6 shelves for storage (that are missing). to be perfectly honest the owners aren't sure of the make as the decal is missing from the lid and does not appear to be a name plate. they could only state somehow that it comes from france. i guess with that staement i am ass u me ing that it is a Pathé phono because of the straight tone arm and forward facing reproducer. that does not appear that it can be moved to be anything but forward facing. i should mention that i live in canada and there was at least one maybe two Pathé factories in eastern canada from around the mid teens to about 1921. i will try to load a picture of the phono from the ad but my computer skills are not equal to that of an 8 year old. but here are the style of labels i have which are blue, green and red with the exception of the art design ones.
i believe at least two of the label style's are centre start due to the large space between the end of the groove and the edge of the record
]

once again a big thank you to all. i will post a pic of the of the phono. as well i would like to post some pics of my collection. i am almost finished restoring my vv 4-3 which was heavily damaged in a flood back in the fifties. i just picked up a victrola barona which is the canadian version of the vv 4-40. i have two edison's c-150 and the 1137 which require some work. i will probably sell one when i finish fixing them up just don't know which one. and well a brunswick gerona, hmv portable phonola organola, and my first a sonora troubador. sorry not a brag session i had to tell someone as i know of no one else who any enthusiasism or appreciation about these as me LOL. not even the misses has any interest. woe to be me. hope the pic's turn out and a great forum it is. dan