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Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:33 am
by kropton
Hello,
I recently noticed that a few late-production 2 min. cylinders have a different "wax" compared to standard gold moulded cylinders.
They are distinguished by a greater mass, a very shiny and smooth surface and are very hard, not resistant to chipping.
The recordings are also completely different - they are very loud and no longer have introductions.
Surely if I didn't know I would say it's a black Amberol but they are 2 minute !
Is it possible that edison in the last years of production produced 2 minute cylinders from amberol wax?
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:48 am
by phonogfp
Many collectors seem to think so, and for awhile I went along with the theory. However, in the April 1909 issue of The Edison Phonograph Monthly (p.15), this appeared in response to a dealer inquiry:
"It is true that a Model H Reproducer can be used on Standard Records with possibly better results than a Model C Reproducer. It is not, however, wise to use the Model H Reproducer on Standard Records. The reproducing point of the Model H is much smaller than in the Model C, and Standard Records are not made to withstand the possible wear of the smaller point. Standard Records are made of a different composition than Amberol Records [emphasis added], and a smaller point is more apt to cut the former. We would advise you and all other Dealers not to encourage the use of Model H Reproducers on Standard Records."
This was included in an article titled, "Edison Amberol Attachments," which appeared in the December 2020 issue of the APS magazine.
Still, the late 2-minute Edison records are clearly made of superior material compared to earlier production. It speaks well for the company that improvements to the 2-minute records were being made even in the waning days of their manufacture.
George P.
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:56 am
by edisonplayer
The late Edison 2 minutes used the same wax that the Amberols did.They aren't susceptible to mold like the earlier 2 minutes. edisonplayer.
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:27 pm
by recordmaker
The announcements continue on to the early 4 min Amberols and are then dropped for both formats fairly quickly.
It is possible that 2min announced records were carried over to this material in the same way that a few blue amberols come from announced 4 min masters.
The Amberol wax material certainly is used in the late 2 minute records and so is the wall thickness and rib tooling on the inside hence the increased weight commented on. I assume this was done for strength due to the more brittle nature of the wax.
The Amberol material probably contains some sulphur and some copper in traces big enough to act as anti fungal agents and also give that surface bloom seen on Amberol records.
A model H stylus will not fit the groove well and the 1:2 lever of the stylus bar that compensates for the smaller vertical movement of a 4 minute groove will cause the groove to do more work on a smaller surface area and the stylus not necessarily going to track nicely in the groove.
The fact that the H does wear out the normal 4 minute groove of the Amberol on loud passages quicker than a C reproducer wears the softer earlier 2 min wax suggests that playing these late 2 min with the H is not best practice.
That said the hard wax can be damaged with a 2 minute stylus as well on peaks.
in the end it looks as if the Edison production department had to compromise to allow for a transition and using one wax would have made sense and the process of molding changed at that point as well so the only distinguishing feature is the beveled end vs the flat of the newer Amberol .
As a result however some of the best examples of clean 2 minute records do come from this period due to the fungal mold resistance .
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:53 pm
by Hit of the Week
recordmaker wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:27 pm
The announcements continue on to the early 4 min Amberols and are then dropped for both formats fairly quickly.
It is possible that 2min announced records were carried over to this material in the same way that a few blue amberols come from announced 4 min masters.
The Amberol wax material certainly is used in the late 2 minute records and so is the wall thickness and rib tooling on the inside hence the increased weight commented on. I assume this was done for strength due to the more brittle nature of the wax.
The Amberol material probably contains some sulphur and some copper in traces big enough to act as anti fungal agents and also give that surface bloom seen on Amberol records.
A model H stylus will not fit the groove well and the 1:2 lever of the stylus bar that compensates for the smaller vertical movement of a 4 minute groove will cause the groove to do more work on a smaller surface area and the stylus not necessarily going to track nicely in the groove.
The fact that the H does wear out the normal 4 minute groove of the Amberol on loud passages quicker than a C reproducer wears the softer earlier 2 min wax suggests that playing these late 2 min with the H is not best practice.
That said the hard wax can be damaged with a 2 minute stylus as well on peaks.
in the end it looks as if the Edison production department had to compromise to allow for a transition and using one wax would have made sense and the process of molding changed at that point as well so the only distinguishing feature is the beveled end vs the flat of the newer Amberol .
As a result however some of the best examples of clean 2 minute records do come from this period due to the fungal mold resistance .
Lot's of good information there, recordmaker, Thanx !
Iowa Dale
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:54 pm
by gunnarthefeisty
I once bought one at an antique show, and managed to drop it not once but TWICE from a few feet before realizing the bottom of the box was loose, and it didn't so much as chip. Certainly plays nice.
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:59 pm
by TinfoilPhono
Refer back to what George wrote a few posts earlier, from the Edison factory itself in 1909: "Standard Records are made of a different composition than Amberol Records." That's pretty conclusive. In my experience there is a clear difference between early and late 2-minute records, but the late ones I have -- sturdier and more resistant to mold -- are much less brittle than wax Amberols. That alone tells me that the company was truthful when they stated the composition was different.
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:34 am
by max_phenol
I discussed this topic with "kropton" directly some days ago. Actually I can't confirm that late Edison black wax are more susceptible to mold than earlier ones. Attached are photos of some examples of moldy very late American and German ones.
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:16 am
by max_phenol
recordmaker wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:27 pm
The Amberol material probably contains some sulphur and some copper in traces big enough to act as anti fungal agents [...] As a result however some of the best examples of clean 2 minute records do come from this period due to the fungal mold resistance .
I am wondering if back then mold really was a problem, so that manufacturers of cylinder records added certain ingredients to the material to prevent them from mold. Seen from today, mold is of course a big problem. But in the early 1900s cylinders were just invented a few years back and therefore obviously treated well (stored not in a humid attic or basement) and played regularly. So, they rather would wore out than getting moldy, I guess. Are problems with moldy cylinders reported in the contemporary press?
Re: Late Edison Standard Cylinders
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:02 am
by recordmaker
The inclusion of the sulphur and copper are incidental due to the incorporation of ebonite in the formula and not as far as I know a deliberate anti fungal it just happens as a side effect.