Refinishing using Analine dyes

[ColoradoPhonograf]

I am ready for the refinishing process of a Vic VI. The case needed serious attention as well as a new top motor board and new corner column pieces recreated. I know they used analine dyes originally in the finishing process. I have never used dyes before but have significant experience with oil based stains. I'm not sure if I'm tackling some new area I have no experience in or should I stay with an oil base stain which I can test samples on scrap pieces of mahogany. It's too good of project to mess up and have to start all over again, Any idea or experiences you refinishers can guide me with? I would appreciate help with this.

Thank You,
ColoradoPhonograf

[syncopeter]

Analine dyes are carcinogenic. So I really wouldn't use these. Back then they were the only really stable artificial colourings, but there are many alternatives now.

Peter.

[martinola]

Hi ColoradoPhonograf and syncopeter!

I think we need to keep some perspective on the use of Aniline Dye. It's still used in a lot of products today (including dyes and pigments for paint and stain). While Wikipedia doesn't classify it as carcinogenic, I agree with Peter that it's something to be careful with. I'd use the same amount of caution that one would use for any other solvent based process. (Perhaps the solvents are what Peter is referring to as carcinogenic.) Here it becomes a personal choice of what kind of look you can accept. For me, if you want it to look like an original finish, then the best way to do that is use what they used. To my mind, aniline dye is actually safer than using oil-based stain.

I use it as a water-borne stain. I dilute the powder into hot water (taking care not to breathe the dust). I use gloves (more to keep my hands from turning to whatever color I'm working on). Probably the most toxic of the process is the application of the shellac (due to the Denatured Alcohol). Once the Alcohol evaporates, you have a non-toxic shellac finish. It soaks in fast, so you also have to be quick and have the stain at just the right dilution. If you fill the grain, you'll need to go lighter on the stain as the dark filler will also darken the over-all tone. A Victor 6 is indeed a significant project. Might I suggest trying this out on a VV-IX first? It's hard to advise you on this, because I never refinish a machine that I'm not prepared to re-do if it doesn't go well. I'd go ahead and do it, but I wouldn't like to think of you re-doing it and cursing me all the while. Whatever you end up doing, I beg you to post photos and tell us how it's going.

Best wishes to you both,

Martin

(Moderator - please ignore duplicate guest post version of this. Thnx)

[Brad]

Hi CF,

Martinola gives good advice. Since you have new wood, I would recommend experimenting on new wood first to see what you get. I have not used aniline dies, however, I know that some can use water or alcohol. Water will raise the grain and you will have to sand before you apply the finish. If you are using shellac, you will have to make sure the piece is dry before you apply or you could suffer from blush. You may have better luck with alcohol which will evaporate faster and raise the grain less.

Again, experiment on scrap wood until you get the look you want.

Before and after pictures please!

Good Luck.

[squeeker7]

I've used both alcohol and oil analine dyes - on a number of machines I have restored, I strip the machine, make any wood/veneer repairs using wood filler on sold parts such as leg edges, on veneer I use my burn-in kit and proper color lacquer sticks. I then restain the cabinet (requires some stain color mixing)Once the stain is dry (Minwax)I shoot (spray - using HVLP system) several coats of analine colored shellac (cut to 1 lb) which are sanded between coats. These coats are a shade or two lighter than the final color which is derived usually from the inside of the cabinet lid. The for the final coats (2)I use analine tinted DEFT (lacquer based finish)semi-gloss which has been tinted to the final color - I spray 2 coats with sanding (300 grit)between the two coats. After a week of drying the final coat is rubbed with steel wool #0000. After the steel wool I hand rub the cabinet using Deluxing Compound (a very mild rubbing compound which is available from Woodworkers Supply - or at least it used to be)

This process produces beautiful finish.

[gramophoneshane]

If you're finishing the machine with shellac, DONT use an alcohol based stain or dye, otherwise the alcohol in the shellac will desolve the stain. This can sometimes either result in the stain pooling towards the edges of the shellac as it's laid, or you can remove the stain where each pass of shellac overlaps. If you're finishing with shellac, a water based or oil/turpentine/mineral spirits based stain is much easier & safer to use.
Alcohol based stains are better used with lacquers, poly's & waterbased finishes.
That said, I actually do use alcohol based stains under shellac now and then, but usually only to match new finishes with old. It can be done, but there's a bit of an art to it & it takes quite a bit of practice so as not to end up with a finish resembling zebra stripes.
This applies to applying the shellac by hand with either a brush or pad, which is how I use shellac. The same problems may not occure if you are using spray equiptment to apply the shellac, but I think the first few coats would have to be extremely light & quick drying for it not to have time to unsettle an alcohol based stain.

[squeeker7]

Yes patience is required - the shellac is used as a mild filler and I spray it as stated with a HVLP system. Once the 2 coats of shellac have dried and sanded I spray several top coats (sanded between coats)with the tinted lacquer - usually several coats. Have never had any streaking or other anomolies with the process. The hand rubbed final finish comes out great. The is definitely labor intensive but worth the effort.