Help with Phonograph identification please.

[Lynton]

I have acquired some phonograph parts and need to identify the make and model as I wish to know the cabinet or box it was in as well as track down some missing parts.
I only have the motor, base board, turntable and reproducer with arm and there are no names or labels on it except the Thorens motor backplate (double spring).
I am new to all this and will attempt to post some pictures.
If anyone can assist with information or a source of information I would greatly appreciate itI

[gramophoneshane]

All the parts shown were made by Thorens of Switzerland, including the soundbox (even though it says Made In England).
Unfortunately, Thorens supplied parts for literally hundreds of different companies around the world, and the machines these companies made are commonly called "off-brand machines" amoung collectors.
Most of these companies were basically cabinet makers who bought the parts from outside parts supply companies such as Thorens, assembled a gramophone, and either sold them under their own company name, or sold the machines to various music or furniture stores/chains under their name.
So basically, it may be impossible to identify exactly what company & machine these parts belong to.
Probably the only hope you have of finding out would be if a British collector recognised the "British Ideal" soundbox logo as being used by a particular gramophone manufacturing company or music/furniture retailer.
A google search didn't pull anything up for "Ideal", but it's not unusual for a soundbox to carry a different name than the machine itself.
I'm not familiar with many English gramophone brands, but some that used Thorens parts were Beltona, Alba, Decca, Edison-Bell, & Perophone just to name a few.
Here in Australia, the most common brand that used the exact same Thorens parts you have (except the soundbox) was Rexonola. I've also seen the same motor used in other Aussie off-brands such as Sunbeam & Goodwins, as well as many others.
Below is a picture of the same tonearm, which was used on several of Rexonolas models.

If no-one here is familiar with the Ideal soundbox, your best bet might be to either join the British forum & make enquiries there, or get in contact with the City of London Phonograph & Gramophone Society, to see if anyone can identify the company that used this soundbox.
I take it you live in England?

[Lynton]

I really am new to this - second try to reply:
Many thanks Shane for the info and leads.
Actually I am a sand groper (West Australian)

[Lynton]

I'm beginning to think that it may be the same as used in a Aeolian Vocalion Graduola - well hoping actually.
I have a cabinet that was converted to a storage unit and missing the sound box and grill (also has a single front door).
Does anyone know where I can get details of the Aeolian or in fact the parts I want.

Many thanks in anticipation Lynton

[gramophoneshane]

Aeolian did use motors & parts manufactured by Thorens, but I've never seen that particular motor used in an AV upright before. I've never owned an AV table model or portable, so they may have used a smaller double spring motor in those??
I've only ever owned one AV upright, and have worked on two others, and they all used the motor pictured below- The Aeolian No.7 made by Thorens.
I got the one below amoungst a bunch of motors I bought on Ebay, and I've seen them turn up there listed separately a couple times, so you might get lucky eventually if you check ebay every few days.
I've also seen the soundboxes appear on Ebay from time to time.
The biggest problem however will be getting a motor that still has the turntable with it.
The AV's I've had contact with all had a heavily perforated cast iron turntable, and these are quite fragile. I think many have met their demise when owners have attempted to lift the tt off the spindle when they've rusted together slightly, and the tt snaps in half.
That said, I'm not sure if all AV's used the perforated tt, or if late models used a regular solid sheet metal tt like most other Thorens motors from the early to mid 20s on.

If I understand correctly, your machine still retains the Graduola device, the tonearm & the automatic braking system (which would mean your cabinet still retains the motor board)?
And you will need the motor, turntable, crank & soundbox to complete the running gear?

[brianu]

I'm beginning to think that it may be the same as used in a Aeolian Vocalion Graduola - well hoping actually.
I have a cabinet that was converted to a storage unit and missing the sound box and grill (also has a single front door).
Does anyone know where I can get details of the Aeolian or in fact the parts I want.

Many thanks in anticipation Lynton

I've had 4 or 5 aeolians in the past, and seen a few more than that, and that motor and hardware look nothing like what I saw/worked on. you could post a photo of the cabinet you mentioned - seeing an image would be much better than going by your brief description...

if it's just a project to get something going with what you've got, then good luck, you could probably rig something and pull it all together, but if that's an aeolian cabinet, there's minimal chance that the hardware will be "correct" for it. regardless, working with what you have - especially when you're saving a phonograph cabinet from "storage case" designation - can lead to some pretty interesting results.

[Lynton]

Thanks guys.
Just to clarify I obtained the Thorens drives and turntables from junk shop.
They are not related (I don't think) to the AV cabinet obtained separately.
There is no motor board in the cabinet and front replaced with a single door.
I actually got three drives, the others being single spring and one different tone arm and no motor boards. The other turntable is a perforated type.
I will get some photos of motors and cabinets.

[Lynton]

Here are some pics of the AV cabinet and the two other drives that I got.
The bord and turntable on left is motor board from my original post details.

[gramophoneshane]

Boy oh boy, they didn't leave much did they.
I hate to say it, but I dont think it's worth restoring back to original, unless you happen to find a complete machine that's had the legs cut off or has been attacked by borers or something.
Just to get the cabinet right, you'll need the motor board, tonearm board & the timber surrounding the motor board, as well as a door, the hinged grille, the stretcher between the horn & record compartments, the two pieces of timber beside the grille, and the shelves.
It should look like the picture below.

AV.jpg (71.37 KiB) Viewed 1674 times

Then you've still got to get all the right running gear.
The original tonearms for these are made of pot metal, and due to the poor design used to hold the tonearm together, they are extremely easily broken, so when a good tonearm comes on the market, they will often bring huge amounts of money because so many people are looking for a replacement.
Then you'll need the complete horn assembly & graduola device.
These also incorporated a unique automatic braking system where you'd swing the reproducer over to the end of the record & push a button at the front left of the turntable, to mark the position where the brake would be activated after you played the record. I sold two pieces of this braking system on ebay about about 3 years ago & got around $50 for the pair, so they wont come cheap either.
Then you've still got to get a soundbox, motor, crank, needle cups, lid stay & possibly even the crank escutcheon. The picture below is what the interior should look like
It could take years to find all this separately here in Australia, or you might get most of it all at once from USA, but with the cost of freighting a large heavy double spring cast iron framed motor as well as everything else, it could end up costing as much as 2 complete machines here.

AV interior.jpg (82 KiB) Viewed 1674 times

If it were mine, I'd probably fit it with sturdy shelves & use it for additional record storage.
Another option would be to make it into a frankenphone using the parts you already have. A fairly decent sounding horn can be easily made from plywood, but there'd be a lot of cabinet work involved, and you'd probably have to drill a new hole for the crank & plug the original hole, then refinish the entire cabinet.
Even though the machine would have no collector value, at least you'd have a machine to play & enjoy that was a lot better than the cheap reproductions from India & china that sound like crap & ruin your records.