HMV 113 ruined or genuine?

[Steve]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275924873541 ... R_LysrmhYg

There is a seller in India with a number of these "Transportable" machines which are clearly HMV 113 teak cabinets with HMV innards including the tone-arms, but importantly, they have Thorens or Garrard motors fitted and usually are missing the HMV 5A soundboxes which turn up separately in their own concurrent listings, thus removing any identifier with HMV. My question is: were these "original" machines made up with non-original HMV parts and sold off cheaply or are they a rare and bizarre form of Frankenphone from the past 20 to 30 years?

The one linked to above is a typical example with a replaced lid top so the HMV transfer has been removed. It seems a very odd practise, especially as most sellers want you to believe everything they have IS HMV, whether it has any prior link to Gramophone Company or not! What is their true provenance?

Here's another from the same seller with Columbia / Garrard parts mixed with some remnants of HMV. Note this is also very definitely a teak former 113 cabinet with replaced top to the lid although this one curiously has an Indian HMV decal applied to it afterwards!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275924750890 ... R_LysrmhYg

[CarlosV]

Here's another from the same seller with Columbia / Garrard parts mixed with some remnants of HMV. Note this is also very definitely a teak former 113 cabinet with replaced top to the lid although this one curiously has an Indian HMV decal applied to it afterwards!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275924750890 ... R_LysrmhYg

What seems odd is that there is apparently only one winder hole. If the HMV motor was there originally it is unlikely that its winder would have the same geometry as the Garrard.

[Steve]

Here's another from the same seller with Columbia / Garrard parts mixed with some remnants of HMV. Note this is also very definitely a teak former 113 cabinet with replaced top to the lid although this one curiously has an Indian HMV decal applied to it afterwards!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275924750890 ... R_LysrmhYg

What seems odd is that there is apparently only one winder hole. If the HMV motor was there originally it is unlikely that its winder would have the same geometry as the Garrard.

Very true, Carlos. What's your gut feeling about them? I should probably add that it makes no difference to mr either way as I'm not remotely interested in purchasing, already having a very nice original unmolested HMV 113 in my collection. It's more about academic interest at this point.

[CarlosV]

Very true, Carlos. What's your gut feeling about them? I should probably add that it makes no difference to mr either way as I'm not remotely interested in purchasing, already having a very nice original unmolested HMV 113 in my collection. It's more about academic interest at this point.

Steve, it is possible that the Indian branch of the Gramophone Co had to resort to utilize third-party pieces (like the Garrard motor) at some point in their production, maybe during WWII or in periods when they were assembled in India and original parts were not in enough stock locally to satisfy the production demand, but as far as I know there are no extant records to confirm or deny that, not even consistent lists of their products seem to exist. To me the only practical way to ascertain if these machines are genuine would be a detailed inspection to find traces of tampering, which in the case can only be one if one buys it, risking to end up with a Frankenphone. As in your case, I have a couple of these 113 already - and they differ in some details despite generally looking identical. Maybe some adventurous buyer would try his/her luck on one of these for sale, and confirm or deny their authenticity. The fact is that such machines with non HMV parts have shown up over the years in numbers high enough to lend credence that they may be authentic and not a recent alteration.