Triumph F with Warble

[danohallaron]

One of my Triumphs has not sounded right since I bought it last year, and I'm back at trying to get it into the first string, but I refuse to play it for anybody with this issue. It's an F model, very clean and otherwise just fine. I have cleaned and adjusted the governor, which I thought was the problem, but it's still there. Something must be dragging. When I back off the brake, it spins fast and I don't hear the warble. But it all sounds like chipmunks so I can't tell at that speed. If I set rpm's at 160, it will fluctuate from about 155 to 165. My D-2 doesn't fluctuate more than about 1 rpm at 160.

I'm looking for any tips on this. I have 6 Triumphs, so I can swap things out. I just refurbished 2, right down to bare frame. So I'm learning my way around. But I'm looking for direction, as my efforts so far have not fixed it. I have done the easy stuff, including swapping cylinders, horns and reproducers but it made no difference. The spring on this thing takes a long time to wind down but it seems to play more slowly if it is not fully wound. So I was wondering if I should try another spring or swap in a 3-weight governor that I know is good (the F has a 4). I'm lost.

[outune]

Hi Dan-- On your Triumph "warble" As long as everything is cleaned and lubricated (governor shaft, belt tensioner, all topworks shafts and bearings), I have found that most warble are in the belt-- If the belt is a little tight--or loose-- or has a lump in it.. it can cause the speed to fluctuate.. pulsing enough to give the sound that warble. I have an Amberola VIII that's doing it now and I just haven't taken the time to make a new belt for it--- but I know that's my issue.

Anyway- That's my two cents. Hope it helps-

Brad Abell

[FellowCollector]

If the condition you're referring to is flutter (meaning just that - the reproduced sound is not smooth and natural but has a consistent trembling) and your leather belt is in fine condition and is not loose or having a thick section where the splice is then your problem is almost certainly that the governor friction disc is slightly warped. I have ten Triumphs in my collection and well more than one hundred other Edison cylinder phonographs and at least 90 percent of those few that had playback flutter had warped governor friction discs (or governor weight mismatches). In most instances the friction discs are brass which can and will warp for various reasons. And I removed the flutter in each. How do you tell whether the friction disc is warped? Allow the governor to rotate at a very low speed and watch the friction disc. It should rotate very true. Any warp will transfer to the upper works and voila - annoying flutter. Now, another cause (far more rare) would be slightly bent governor shaft end(s) that insert into the bearings (or bushings if you prefer). The governor shaft ends have a fairly tiny diameter and are easily bent if care is not taken when removing a given governor. Finally, all of the governor weights must be absolutely the same weight. I have a cheap Harbor Freight digital scale that I use to weigh my governor weights. And, of course, the governor weight springs must be produced from the same source material to allow the same tension for each weight to rotate evenly on the governor.

Now, if your issue of "warble" is not flutter then feel free to disregard the prior discourse.

Doug Olds

[danohallaron]

Hi Dan-- On your Triumph "warble" As long as everything is cleaned and lubricated (governor shaft, belt tensioner, all topworks shafts and bearings), I have found that most warble are in the belt-- If the belt is a little tight--or loose-- or has a lump in it.. it can cause the speed to fluctuate.. pulsing enough to give the sound that warble. I have an Amberola VIII that's doing it now and I just haven't taken the time to make a new belt for it--- but I know that's my issue.

Anyway- That's my two cents. Hope it helps-

Brad Abell

Thanks, Brad. I'll swap out belts. I would like to find some really high-quality belting. While I am decent at making them, I am finding the belting to be uneven, curled and patched together. I'd be happy to buck up for some great belting.

[danohallaron]

If the condition you're referring to is flutter (meaning just that - the reproduced sound is not smooth and natural but has a consistent trembling) and your leather belt is in fine condition and is not loose or having a thick section where the splice is then your problem is almost certainly that the governor friction disc is slightly warped. I have ten Triumphs in my collection and well more than one hundred other Edison cylinder phonographs and at least 90 percent of those few that had playback flutter had warped governor friction discs (or governor weight mismatches). In most instances the friction discs are brass which can and will warp for various reasons. And I removed the flutter in each. How do you tell whether the friction disc is warped? Allow the governor to rotate at a very low speed and watch the friction disc. It should rotate very true. Any warp will transfer to the upper works and voila - annoying flutter. Now, another cause (far more rare) would be slightly bent governor shaft end(s) that insert into the bearings (or bushings if you prefer). The governor shaft ends have a fairly tiny diameter and are easily bent if care is not taken when removing a given governor. Finally, all of the governor weights must be absolutely the same weight. I have a cheap Harbor Freight digital scale that I use to weigh my governor weights. And, of course, the governor weight springs must be produced from the same source material to allow the same tension for each weight to rotate evenly on the governor.

Now, if your issue of "warble" is not flutter then feel free to disregard the prior discourse.

Doug Olds

It is definitely fluttering. For instance, when Ada Jones and Billy Murray go to the bells during a song break, the bells are crystal clear on my D-2 and unclear on the problem F machine. I will swap in a governor assembly from a known good machine. Funny thing, though.... I recently bought a B at an out-of-area auction and they "forgot" to show a photo with it opened up to reveal all of the rust. I had to de-rust and wire wheel the daylights out of it to get it rust-free. Polished everything and put it back together with some ugly governor weights and it plays great. I guess the weights were equally rusted lol. Thanks kindly for the tip, Doug.

[JerryVan]

It is definitely fluttering. For instance, when Ada Jones and Billy Murray go to the bells during a song break, the bells are crystal clear on my D-2 and unclear on the problem F machine.

Ada Jones! Every phonograph flutters when you play Ada Jones. Who flutters/warbles more than her?!

(Yes, I know... it's the bells you're referring to. )

[outune]

Contact Wyatt Markus (MicaMonster)-- I've purchased some great belting material from him. I suspect he'd also be glad to provide tips on making the belt as well. He's a fantastic and generous resource.

Brad Abell

[phonogfp]

Wyatt contributed an excellent video showing how to make belts. You can see it here:

https://forum.antiquephono.org/topic/31 ... tt-marcus/

George P.

[FellowCollector]

Thanks kindly for the tip, Doug.

You're very welcome, Dan. Always happy to try to help if I can.

I would like to find some really high-quality belting. While I am decent at making them, I am finding the belting to be uneven, curled and patched together. I'd be happy to buck up for some great belting.

The leather belting that has been sourced by Wyatt Markus for many years is excellent stuff. Soft and supple and perfect for any cylinder phonographs. Last time I corresponded with Wyatt about buying some of his belting (July 2023) he told me that his leather phonograph belting is being carried by The Phonograph Shop. I deal with Julie there on any parts I need. She is friendly, courteous and very prompt with shipping parts. I know that she carries Wyatt's belting as only 3 days ago I received my order of 15 feet of this excellent leather belting along with a few other parts I needed. Again, this is the same belting that is sourced through Wyatt. You will be very pleased with this belting, Dan, if you order it.

Doug Olds

[danohallaron]

What I got not long ago was on a metal spool, probably towards the end of the roll, and every time I make a belt out of it, the outside has a significantly larger diameter than the inside. I've tried stretching it but to no avail. Maybe I inadvertently got the economy belt. Don't remember. But is this what you bought??

Belting 7/32" Dark Brown Premium per Foot (732PDBN) "Edison"