HMV Model 2 (Germany), horn challenge

[nostalgia]

I received for free this HMV, German made, horn model yesterday. I believe it is named Model 2, and I presume it was made during WWI at the DGAG factory in Hannover, possibly between 1916-1918. ( Please correct, if this information is wrong). The machine was equipped with an Exhibition Junior sound box, and it is complete, apart from missing one of the two screws holding the back bracket.
I cleaned the cabinet yesterday, and have removed the motor and metal parts for cleansing etc.
However, the horn is the big challenge, it has most likely been stored in a damp/wet area for a long time, and we can see it is severely damaged at the rim. At first I thought to discard the horn completely, but has slept on it ( as is always a good idea), and am now hesitant. A German HMV horn does not turn up every day...
So what are the options? Myself I see only one solution to keep it, after grinding it, apply chemical metal at the most fragile and missing sections at the rim of the horn, and then re paint the horn completely. I will lose the identity of the horn, but it will be functioning...
What is your opinion on this, what would you do yourself?

[Marco Gilardetti]

Personally I would redo just the outer rim, leaving the paint of the inner section of the horn as-is (just some cleaning, and very light polishing perhaps).

As for the outer rim, what about talking with any of those fellows that work on antique car coaches? I've seen some of them redo cars that looked like a swiss cheese of rust.

[nostalgia]

I agree, Marco. After writing the above this morning, I had a closer look at the horn, and it should be very possible to leave the inner section of the horn as it is, and care for the outer rim.
I will try it myself, it is also a way to test and try, and learn. Thanks for your advice on finding someone that work on antique cars, but it is not easy to find in this scarcely populated country, without having to pay a LOT.

[Marco Gilardetti]

I think I don't remember where you live exactly. Not such a bad country if you get external horn grmophones for free, anyway!

Indeed I believe that you can do a very respectable job by reconstructing the small missing part (with rexin or plaster perhaps) and then treating the resto of the outer rim with some anti-rust paint.

As for refinishing, it looks as if the "faux-woodgrain" effect of the outer rim was made with a nearly-dry brush while the horn was spinning, as on some sorth of lathe. I just can't figure exacly how they avoided drips above the embossed parts, however it still might be an idea.

[JerryVan]

In the case of the horn, I sometimes find that cleaning and polishing a horn has the effect of greatly diminishing its few flaws. I believe that at least 90% of your horn could look fantastic and that would pull one's eye away from its other deficiencies. I would at least try that approach first and then reevaluate what may or may not be done with the damage.

[Inigo]

I vote for the same. It looks like it you manage to clean the horn with a soft soap ----please be extremely careful not to disgrace the finish---- or something, and after dry you apply a soft wax ----also make sure this does not attack the painting---- it can look fabulous despite the small deterioration in the edges.

[JeffR1]

If that were mine, I would use phosphoric acid to kill the rust (it will turn black) and then Dawn dishwashing liquid to neutralize the acid.
Use a a hair dryer to get rid of the water.
I would wash it off just at the edge of the kitchen sink using a tooth brush, rinse it really well using a new tooth brush. (the Dawn soap will do a good job of neutralizing the acid)
Pick off any lose rust with a dental pick and gingerly use a small brass wire brush to get any lose flakes off.
If any untreated rust show up (not black), then repeat until all lose rust is gone and clean metal is left.

Do not sand or grind anything, or use any aggressive wire brushes.

I would use JB-Weld to build that up, making sure the thick side of the repair in on the back side.
The JB-Weld can be worked into the metal with the dental pick, gently scoring the metal so it has the best surface area possible to bond to.
(the JB-Weld can be cleaned up with methyl hydrate)

I like to use small files, sand paper with a properly shaped block of wood to create the curvature of the horn.
I would not go any more course the 180 wet/dry paper.

Use "Navel jelly", it's a mild solution of the phosphoric acid and it's made thick to stay in one place and it's usually made pink for what ever reason.

[Sherazhyder]

Hi ! Only a car denter knows how to restore this horn. The denter will remove that part of the rim, which has been completely or mostly turned in to rust; replace it with a new metal sheet and then shape it. The remaining work will be completed by painter. Instead of repainting the entire horn, the painter should only paint the rim. I know that expert painters can make the matching colour which retains the overall vintage look of the object.

I am attaching pictures of a rusted area of my impala 1961 which has been completely restored.

Best regards
Sheraz

[nostalgia]

Yesterday evening I cleaned the horn as planned, and I now took some new photos after also polishing the tone arm etc.
Thanks for all advice, I will reply you all in this message.

Marco: I live in Norway And yes, it is still possible to find good deals here on gramophones, and also like now, even sometimes have one for free. This time it was a generous musician that wanted someone to save the gramophone.
Jerry, yes I have also found out in the past, that cleaning makes a HUGE difference, and takes the eyes somewhat away from other deficiencies.
Inigo: I have always used Swarfega hand cleaner on my horns so far, and also this time. No wax has bee applied yet, before deciding what to do next.
JeffR1: Thanks for your detailed answer. I had to google JB Weld, and that seems to be a manufacturer, if you please could pinpoint the exact product, I will look into it. Somehow I believe it is a chemical metal, that I plan to use, and I would be happy like to read more about this particular product. The Dawn soap and Navel Jelly is not available here, but it most probably can be substitited by something else...
Sheraz: Yes, that would be a good option, and in particular as Marco suggested using someone who restore antique cars, and see the value in antiques, but unfortunately it would be far too expensive. It would easily cost in the range from 800-1200 Euro to do the things needed, including the paint, and because of that, it is not an option. That's the problem of living in an extreme high cost country when it comes to repairing something, and having your car fixed etc.

So what do I do, I don't know yet. I recognize it is also a shared opinion here. Some of you would have cleaned it and waxed it, and left it as it is, while others would remove the brittle rust ( that easily as it appears now, can be removed by the power of the hand since it is very brittle..) and try to decompose the missing parts. One thing for sure, if I decompose the horn at the rusty areas, it will really stand out from the rest of the horn, no way I will be able to make it look anywhere close to the original.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Well, after your cleaning work, it is definitely a "keeper". Looks good even "as is", and possibly would much improve with some wax.

as Marco suggested using someone who restore antique cars, and see the value in antiques, but unfortunately it would be far too expensive. It would easily cost in the range from 800-1200 Euro to do the things needed, including the paint, and because of that, it is not an option.

I actually didn't mean repainting the whole horn (the inner section is absolutely all right by my standards, and it would be a pity to repaint it!) but just having the small missing part re-applied with some careful metal sheet bending and soldering, the way they do it. Then you could retouch the paint in that area alone if you're good with colours, or repaint the whole outer rim as closely as possible to the original painting - but just the rim!

As for the colours mixing and painting, as I did some very decent jobs in the past but however I'm definitely not a maestro in the field, I would perhaps get in contact with a student in some art college, and pay her/him to do the colour mixing and paint job for me.

As a side note, if you lived over here, 1K € invested in restoring the horn would be very worth the re-selling price of the machine, and likely you would even have a very decent profit margin left!!!