Questions about this Victor Monarch (or is it a Victor III?)

[Zenger]

That's the first question: Which is it? I know some Victor III machines bore Monarch ID tags, but I can't tell if that's the case here or if this is just a Monarch. How can I tell? (The crank sure looks like a III...) Also: Doesn't this horn look like a 9-panel Columbia nickel-plated morning-glory? Did someone make these for Victor, too? If so, I've never seen one.

[JerryVan]

It's a Monarch, or M. The fancy trim piece above the base molding is telltale. The crank is wrong for this machine.

[Jerry B.]

I identify a Victor by the information on the ID tag assuming the tag has been on the cabinet since leaving the factory. Your machine looks like a very attractive Victor M and the ID tag confirms this to be true. Confusion comes from catalogs offering the complete lineup of models. The page showing the likeness of the Victor M says Victor III. (I don't have a copy of the catalog so it may say Victor the Third or Victor 3 or Victor III.)

Victor R was the price leader or Victor 1 (or I or the first)
Victor E was slightly more expensive and a Victor 2 (or II or 2 or the second)
Victor M was slightly more expensive and a Victor 3 (or III or 3 or the third)
Victor MS was slightly more expensive and a Victor 4 (or IV or 4 or the fourth)
Victor D was slightly more expensive and a Victor 5 (or V or 5 or the fifth)

When the excellent "The Victor Data Book" was written the known information (or lack of) was combined for each machine position in the Victor machine lineup. So information about the Victor M was added together with the Victor 3 which became the Victor III. I can be a bit confusing. So is a Victor M the same as a Victot III? You can argue a position of yes, no, maybe because they shared some common parts.

Jerry Blais

[Pathe Logical]

Aftermarket, nine-petal, nickel-plated horns made to fit Victors were manufactured. I have one also. Just make sure the horn pictured is unmolested, and not a "modified" Columbia horn before buying.

[zipcord]

That's a good looking machine. In my mind, the M is more desirable than a III:

Simpler ID plate without Kanji
More ornate cabinet
Earlier machine

My quest has been lettered Victors. I know that motors from these early machines tend to be noisy. Anyone out that has both a Victor M and a Victor III can tell me if the III has a refined, quieter motor?

[Jerry B.]

Yes, a well adjusted and serviced Victor III motor will be more quiet than a well adjusted and serviced Victor M motor.

A spring motor repairman once told me that the earlier lettered machines, like the E, M, MS, and D, could be made quieter by using shims in the assembly of the spring motor.

Jerry B.

[Jmcmahan67]

I have a Victor M, and I consider it to be an outstanding machine. Yes, it does sound a bit loud because of the beveled gears, but that’s just part of the beauty of the time period in which it was made. I believe that some people will install fiber gears to get it quieter, but I would never do that. You also need to remember that these machines came with a round hole Victor exhibition, which really didn’t hold a medium or small needle very well. I learned early on, that they will sometimes come out when playing. Since I’m generally using a loud needle, you generally don’t hear the motor anyway, unless you want to put a sock in it as they say. It also helps that I have an oversized horn, which is original to the machine and just an upgrade that was purchased in 1903.

The motor itself is a beautiful creation and built to stand the test of time.. I especially love the brass spring barrels.

John

[kiwiatlarge]

That's a good looking machine. In my mind, the M is more desirable than a III:

Simpler ID plate without Kanji
More ornate cabinet
Earlier machine

My quest has been lettered Victors. I know that motors from these early machines tend to be noisy. Anyone out that has both a Victor M and a Victor III can tell me if the III has a refined, quieter motor?

Agree the M is a better looking machine than a III. The III has the double cut two spring motor while the M has a bevel gear motor. When new, the III double cut motor is quieter than the bevel gear motor. Time and wear means in practice this might not be so. I have a late MS (with an oak victor IV style cabinet) and an early Victor 3 (early ones have the Arabic 3 not number III). The late MS is very quiet and the III is noisier simply because of wear and use over time. However, the III is still quieter than many of my bevel geared motors that are more worn. So an M can be quieter than a III, though a III will be quieter in most cases. A III motor is also less "fussy" to fix than a M motor.

[Zenger]

Thanks, everyone. The next time I get to storage I will examine the horn more closely to see whether or not it's an adapted Columbia horn, but I suspect not. In the meantime, could someone kindly post a picture of the proper crank for this machine? A picture with measurements would be even more helpful, if possible.

Also: Did Victor make long-throat Exhibitions?

[kiwiatlarge]

Thanks, everyone. The next time I get to storage I will examine the horn more closely to see whether or not it's an adapted Columbia horn, but I suspect not. In the meantime, could someone kindly post a picture of the proper crank for this machine? A picture with measurements would be even more helpful, if possible.

Also: Did Victor make long-throat Exhibitions?

Yes, Victor made long-throat Exhibitions. See photos and measurements for the crank.